Metro + Apisto's???

[boost.puppy]

Due to a freak accident with my heater & sudden severe temp drop

one of my Male blue rams has developed "pop eye"

I have been reccomended to use Metro as a friend of mine cured their discus problems with it.

I have 4 Apisto's in the tank where the ram is affected, Will I have to treat seperately? or is it better to treat all of the fish?

I have not used Metro before, and really only had friends use it on Discus, so would my Dwarf's be ok with this?

in the tank I have 3x Juvi Apisto's one adult male & a pair of german bred Blue rams along with a common BN.

If the metro affects the Apisto's I will just have to leave it I think, or try to treat seperately as my quarantine tank has turned into an apisto tank :P
although my ram is one of my fave's I don't want to risk my Juvi's :(

also will I be able to move the affected fish as I am moving house in 13 days, and if it's going to stress him further, I might have to arrnage a babysitter until he is better.

I have had pop eye on a wild german Blue ram female before, unfortunately with some bad advice I treated her with Malachite green and she didn't make it.

I am very open to suggestions so please don't hold back!

[boost.puppy]

anyone???

[fishgeek]

right big mouth small brain... is my first disclaimer

pop eye is it unilateral or bilateral, i personally think the response to metro your friend had was good luck rather than correct treatment

cooling of the fish yes that may have allowed some infection to overcome a reduced immune system, how cold is it in aus right now? i would guess the water didn't get to cold

exopthalmus is a difficult condition to treat because we often dont know the cause, local inflammation exacerbates the whole problem

in unilateral case's i ahve had some luck by applying topical ointments

if the condition is bilateral yes you can use metronidazol, try and give it orally (dapnia are a useful carrier) how effective it will be though is another matter

[boost.puppy]

thanks for your help,
the tank actually dropped from 30*c to 10*c, I live in the Blue mountains (hence why so cold) so it was pretty severe in my eyes.

my fish actually died last night, the eye that was affected actually sunked in, there was a grey scar above it, but when he died it turned blood red & the fish turned white


I'm not sure if your first disclaimer was directed at me, but I have had this problem before, Listened to a guy at my LFS who gave me the wrong advice, hence why I had so many questions & I didn't want to make another big mistake like the Melachite green.

[boost.puppy]

double post

[Th0mas]

Hi boost,

Sorry to hear of your losses.
As Andrew has stated, there can be many factors which may result with pop-eye. I've had my fair share of such myself, and each occasion could be something totally different.

But going from 30 to 10 and back up again, that would give them a rather huge shock.

How big is your tank (sorry if I've already asked before), it's quite severe to have such large drop by a dead heater (unless it went unnoticed over a day or two). Going as low as 10 degree, you're lucky not to loose the rest.

Your LFS is not totally wrong - Melachite green may help depending on the type of infection that resulted with pop-eye.

Hope there's no other ill-effect with the rest of the fish.

[boost.puppy]

the last time I treated with melachite green, the fish died from the treatment... perhaps it might be because she was a wild imported ram & more sensitive than a tank bred though...

my tank is 80L it's my quarantine tank that i was using for the Rams as they were spawning less than two weeks ago.
what happened is i was using an old power board as this set-up is no where near as good as my other 4, big mistake! and it surged, although it was "switched on" that lead wasn't receiving any power! I has left it less than 12 hours, because I had done a waterchange that morning & the water was quite warm, i brushed up against the glass that night & felt it really cold so that's when I realised what happened.

I then spent the next two hours, slowly building the temperature back-up because i didn't want my Apisto's to go into shock, they are still very small & I didn't want them to get sick!

do you think i should continue treating the entire tank??? I would estimate the Juvi's would only be 2cms long, 2.5 at the very most & theres three of them.

and the worst part is, I am moving from Glenbrook to Gladesville in 8 days & i wanted the apisto's to come with me straight away.

my next question is: will the temperature drop affect the Bacteria in my canister filter?

I'm concerned about an ammonia spike, I think that's the last thing my fish need after what they went through!

thanks for your help th0mas, I knew either you or Mike would reply!

[Th0mas]

In my opinion, if the fish is already having it's eye popping, then it's likely to be dead within a week (that's from my experience). I've tried all sort of medications in the past, but usually the fish is in a non-salvageable state when it's developed condition such as dropsy or pop-eye.

For the remainder of the tank, I would leave them alone and don't treat them. I believe in not medicating unless there's confirmed illness (otherwise healthy fish can get knocked about).

2-2.5 cm juveniles are quite advanced already (depending on species, but most are), and should be able to handle the relocation without any issue.

I think the temperature drop shouldn't impact your filter significantly. If there's an ammonia spike due to this, it's already passed (given it's already days away) and the problem should no longer present.

Good luck with the move.

PS: Don't forget to thank Andrew as well :)

[boost.puppy]

If Andrew is fishgeek,
Then i have already thanked him (see original response)

although i'm not quite sure if his disclaimer was attentioned to me.

I have checked the parameters, no ammonia as yet, hopefully it has passed like you said (fingers crossed)
I'm planning on a 50% water change tonight anyway as i have new driftwood which is leeching still, and my wter is a bit brown tinged.

the fish are A' Baenshi (sorry for the spelling) and I have my steel blue in there with it, as well as my female Blue ram.

the male died a few days ago 9on Saturday) which was probably in his best interest because he wasn't looking happy & it was breaking my heart to see him like that!

thanks for the advice Th0mas, it's people like you and a few others to why i stay on this forum!

[Th0mas]

Brown water shouldn't be any issue with most apistos/rams. Why do you insist with the 50% w/c?

We do have a very small community in Australia, it is unfortunate that the majority of interest are in African cichlids and it is damn hard to find many experienced keepers that are still dedicated to the dwarf club.

[fishgeek]

disclaimer was describing me... and my opinion on response of eye to metronidazol... ie i dont know for certain and still said i dont think it would be an effective treatment

i am with thomas on not medicating unless you are pretty certain that you need to
fish have an immune system, give them the appropriate enviroment to use it and they will... good clean water will manage many issues

often treatment in a compromised fish can be the final push that finishes them, though without having exact same fish in exact same water as a control and not medicating we cant say that fish died inspite of medication rather than because, this is also often true of fish got better inspite of medication rather than because


andrwe

sounds like the globe actually ruptured - in mammals that is normally only seen with very severe ulcerative disease or direct trauma to the eye

chilling should not have affect the biobacter in any permanent way, there metabolism is related to temperature and they are hardy

[boost.puppy]

Andrew, then I appologise, to be honest I read the thread as you calling me an idiot :(

I haven't treated any of the fish as yet, i am thinking of investing in some good meds & hopefully find a good vet in the Ryde area so If I have another big problem, I can get it looked at.

Th0mas, i guess the brown water is an embarrassment, as well as a precaution, I am unsure of how long the ram had been dead before i fished him out, So the 50% waterchange is to prevent any bacteria & ammonia he may have released into the water.

so far they all seem to be going well, i should post some pics up soon, as they are growing fast (for apisto's) and starting to look really pretty!!!

[Th0mas]

Given the present of drift wood or peat in the tank, the brown water is no embarrassment at all. In fact most apisto/ram do benefit from this.

The tanin from wood/peat causes the water to go brown. It is totally unrelated to any fish's death.

As for a vet for fish - I you'll find more trouble than it's worth. Most vet don't get involve with fish at all (as they don't have legs or wing), and it's probably easier to fire the question to our resident vet here (Mike - I believe he's on holiday at the moment).

[boost.puppy]

Mike as in; Noddy65 Mike? He's a vet??? he never mentioned this to me!

wow, thats handy :P

I heard that about the tanins in the wood & that it's good for some fish, didn't know Apisto's benefit from it though... That's something I did right for once!!!

[Th0mas]

Yes, Mike <=> Noddy65 is our resident vet.

And he's now in Sydney (since the beginning of 08).

The tanin soften water and reduces the pH. which benefit most apisto and ram (plus discus), but the drawback is the brown water (which some people dislike). I (and my fish) don't have any issue with water being brown.

[boost.puppy]

yeah i bought some Apisto's from Mike, saw his set-ups (when it was first put together) but never mentioned he is a vet!!! very very cool.

The brown water is fine but it's very noticable & makes it hard for a good pic, I did a nice chunky water change last night, I love how the Apisto's will swim in the new water while it's being pumped in... very cute!!!

[fishgeek]

boost i try to only be that rude in person :wink:

not many vets can bother with learning anything about fish because not many clients are actually prepared to pay for the correct investigations and treatment
most would rather log no and listen to virtual experts dish out free advice

when the fish cost 20£ and the vet wants to change 20£ to see it and then another 50£ to run some tests and another 15£ for some medication
it is just cheaper to buy a new fish

small fish like the apisto's with short life span and high metabolic rates also go from first apparent signs of illness to dead very quickly to

andrew

[Th0mas]

Andrew,

Totally agree with the financial aspect of keeping apisto - especially of their cost versus durability for the inexperience (including many LFS down under). Making them a major turn-off for the trade. :banghead

However that doesn't stop a small number of us die hard fan, which hoping in one day their popularity will exceed the African rift lake cichlid (yeah - dreaming here :cheers ).

[Rod]

Apisto's will never be as popular as Rift lake fish

You have to know what you are doing to keep and breed apisto's

Africans you just buy a big tank....get a couple of buckets of calcium carbonate.....and a pile of rocks or fake broken sewer pipes. Fill the tank with tap water and add a huge cannister filter or better still a sump and throw in some fish...BANG your a breeder!

Apisto's you have to select quality fish provide care with tank,plants,water quality and feed lots of live food.....too hard for most people for fish that like to hide....but....each to his own :wink:

[fishgeek]

i think they are great fish, unfortunately i am in a protracted move and have only trifasciata left at present

[boost.puppy]

I think they are worth the trouble.. they have so much character & every day they are still alive & kicking It feels good because you haven't screwed-up yet :P

[gingerbeer01]

I think if you consider the specalist diet requirements to avoid health problems (tropheous), the problems of ease of crossbreeding (mbune in general), the fact you can no longer find pure specimens (peacocks) the general poor quality and deformations in quality (Lake Tanganikan shell dwellers).....

I could continue........but it is all about commitment.