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purplefishtail
Mon Mar 17, 2008, 05:50 PM
Hi All, wondering if I could get some advice on my discus. I've got 10 2-3 inch discus in my 55 gallon tank (probably a few too many once they are larger, but I'm going to get a second, larger tank in the next month or two to spread them out). I got the fish about a month ago and they started out great. They were constantly swimming around the tank and begging for food, eating out of my hand within the first two days. Movement around the tank didn't seem to bother them much either. A couple of weeks ago this all changed drastically.

They now spend most of their time rediculously dark (almost black except for the two orange ones which have turned sort of pale on their faces) and hiding in very cramped quarters behind a piece of driftwood. They are still voracious little eaters but they only are coming out to eat and when they do it is usually apparent that something is wrong. They seem to have trouble staying vertical, often listing diagonally from left to right or with their tails held lower than their heads. They also scratch themselves on the fake plants in the tank periodically. This doesn't happen too often, but a couple times a day for most of them. The strange thing is that sometimes they appear as if nothing is wrong with them. Usually this happens as a group too, in the morning or sometimes immediately after feeding they get their bright colors back and mosey about like everything's fine. Unfortunately this state doesn't stick around long and they soon return to their hiding place or sickly look. Whether they're in one of the "healthy" phases or not though, they've become very jumpy and take a lot of coaxing before they come up to eat out of my hand.

Tank parameters seem fine, temp is just over 30, pH is 6.8-6.9. I do ~50% water changes twice a week though over the last couple weeks I've done a few extra water changes hoping to fix things but with no results. I feed them frozen brine shimp, blood worms, and beefheart (though they're not such fans of the beefheart) 4 to 5 times a day. Other tank mates are 4 clown loaches (loaches are also extra dark since about the same time but haven't changed their behavior), a buttefly pleco (no issues here; the discus harrass him, not the other way around), 6 harlequin rasboras, and 8 neon tetras (I've lost 4 neons over the past 5 days if that helps the diagnosis any, though I suspect this has something to do with the discus getting hungry between feedings...they certainly can't eat a whole fish yet but I've seen them pecking at neons peiodically)

The only thing I can think that changed was that I put some new substrate in the bottom of the tank in preparation for some planting. I bought the substrate here: http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/ss-1.htm. Is it possible the substrate is poisoning them or something? Or did putting in the substrate just disrupt their calm, weaken their immune system, and cause them to get sick? In any case, any suggestions on how to get my healthy discus back? Also, if medications are necessary, can I treat with something loach friendly?

Thanks so much for any advice. I really appreciate any help you can give!

ILLUSN
Mon Mar 17, 2008, 10:48 PM
hows your ammonia and no2?

usually those symptoms are a symptom of water quality, i notce 2 50% a week which is good but you'd better test for NH3 and NO2.

neons dont doo well at temps above 27C (25-26C is best for them), they certainly wont like 30C+.

purplefishtail
Sat Mar 22, 2008, 01:16 AM
Ammonia and nitrite are 0. Nitrate is 20. The discus seem to be doing a bit better color wise and they're not listing to the side as often, though they're still really jumpy and nervous. Still losing neons, and now one of the rasboras too. I thought it might be temp on the neons, but they'd been in the tank at least two weeks before they started dying and as far as I know there weren't any spikes in temp since then.

purplefishtail
Sat Mar 22, 2008, 01:52 AM
Forgot to mention, the discus are still scratching too, possibly a little more often though I still wouldn't call it regularly. They have little episodes of scratching several (like 4 to 7) times in a row and then don't scratch much again for another day or two. Usually if one starts doing it a couple more decide its a good idea too and do the same thing. And another thing, I've noticed the loaches scratching every once in a while too. Any ideas?

albatrozz
Sat Mar 22, 2008, 02:04 AM
probably a fluke outbreak, is it only one or is it all of them? If its all of them then try treating them for flukes.

purplefishtail
Sat Mar 22, 2008, 02:06 AM
I don't know if it's all of them, but it's at least half of them. Is there a treatment for flukes that is ok for loaches?

ILLUSN
Sat Mar 22, 2008, 04:27 AM
take the fish out and give them a potasium permangentae dip, that should take care of most of the flukes.

purplefishtail
Sun Apr 13, 2008, 03:44 AM
Well shoot....My fishies seemed to be getting better for several days so I ended up not treating them because I was going to have to order potassium permanganate online and before I did so they were starting to look better. They were generally less shy (though still fairly shy) with their anal and dorsal fins up and their colors all on display. In the last 5 or 6 days though they've gone back to looking awful. A couple of them are near black and they're hiding a lot. While they used to aggressively eat out of my hand, it takes a fair amount of time before they get bold enough to come eat what I'm holding. Strange though, if I just drop the food in they've all got voracious appetites still and are all eating plenty. I've got a new symptom to add to the list now too, a couple of the really dark ones are now showing patches of opaque slime on their bodies. It's not peeling off or looking like spider webs like people seem to describe white slime for Discus Plague or other diseases, nor is it raised at all or a different texture. It just looks like some of their slime has a tinge of white to it. I tried to take a photo but unless the light is hitting them just right you can't see it at all in person, much less with a camera. The areas are mostly along the base of their dorsal and anal fins, though one has it on the entire back half of his body. It hasn't spread to the fins at all, it's all on the body.

I've ordered some potassium permanganate, as I presume I should go back and treat for flukes, and it should be here soon, but I did read in a couple of places that it's not good to use it on young fish (mine are only up to about 3 in now). Is this a worry or should I dip them anyways? Or do we have a new diagnosis and/or treatment for them with the new symptom? Also, does anybody know if I can use a potassium permanganate dip for the loaches as well? As I mentioned in an earlier post, they're scratching themselves too. Should I be dipping the rasboras, tetras, and pleco while I'm at it too?

FYI tank parameters are all still as previously reported except that over the last week or so I've dropped the pH from 6.8 to 6.5.

Thanks so much for any advice you can give. These guys seem pretty tough but they certainly are not very happy with me right now and I'm not very confident with what I'm supposed to do to help them :(

purplefishtail
Tue Apr 15, 2008, 01:06 AM
Things are getting worse. Now one of the worse ones looks as though he's missing some skin. I caught him and took a few photos that will hopefully help.

purplefishtail
Tue Apr 15, 2008, 01:14 AM
Here's one more pic.

dandaman352
Tue Apr 15, 2008, 01:27 AM
Im no expert but you may wanna get some metro because I'm pretty sure thats what your going to need. Someone will either confirm this or reccomend something else. Especially if its not your water thats the problem.

ILLUSN
Tue Apr 15, 2008, 01:52 AM
that looks like serious injury to the body, the white discoloration is excess slime caused by some kind of irritant, are all the fish like that?

purplefishtail
Tue Apr 15, 2008, 02:08 AM
That's the only one with any open wounds. There's one other with no open skin but the same amount of white and a couple others have a little bit of white but it's almost unnoticeable. The other five don't seem to have anything visibly wrong with them though they are still really shy and occasionally swim with their bodies held at a funny angle.

purplefishtail
Tue Apr 22, 2008, 07:36 PM
I treated with API's General Cure which is 250mg metro and 75mg prazi per ten gallons repeated again two days later. Within about 5 days everything was cleared up. White slime is gone and all their wounds appear healed. Yay! Still planning on doing a PP dip this afternoon as my shipment finally arrived.

ILLUSN
Wed Apr 23, 2008, 06:34 AM
good to hear, man i wish we had over the counter acess to real drugs like you guys overseas.
keep us posted.