Worming - Apistogramma

[TW]

My two beautiful female aggies (had them about 1.5-2yrs now) have developed worms. Their anus is swollen & I can see the little light brown/reddish worm ends hanging out. So far they are still eating.

I have given them one treatment of Big L, both in the tank water plus soaked a little food that was eaten. Had one treatment of Prazi (in water & got them to eat what prazi I could - not much - by soaking some live black worms in a water/prazi solution).

There is still one more treatment each of Prazi & Big L in the usual worming treatment, but I had thought I might see improvement at this half way stage, eg reduced anal swelling, but I'm not seeing any improvement.

I've never saved an apisto that had worms. I'd really like to save these two. Is there anything extra I can do for them?

[ILLUSN]

did you try an epson salt bath? a good bath may help them pass some worms (especially after a treatment) and bring down the population of the parracites.

2 tablespoons in 10L for 15min as long as the fish can take it would proably do the trick.

[TW]

Thanks ILLUSN for coming back with this suggestion so quickly. So far I've been treating in the tank.

But for the epsom salt bath, I have to take them out - right?

Cause the fish can only take it for 15mins - correct?

Therefore, I don't need to worry about the container the epsom bath is not being a cycled tank?

Basic questions I know (sorry). Just want to make sure I have it straight.

[TW]

Oh meant to ask , should I also treat the fish that don't have any visual symptoms of worms to the epsom bath as well?

I suspect them as being the possible carriers of the worms. They show now symptoms, but they are new to the tank, where as the girls had been in there, perfectly healthy, for a very long time until I added the new guys in the last few days of Jan 08.

If no them, not sure how the worms got there. I did feed them live brine shrimp in Jan/Feb - something else I seldom do. I only ever use live black worm to give meds with, or entice a new or sick fish to eat - so they didn't come from live black worms.

[fishgeek]

are these bought fish?
if so they may be near end of life span anyway

[TW]

Hi fishgeek, thanks for the advice. I hadn't thought of that. But I had thought I'd had them longer than I actually have. Checked the PM from the guy I bought them from (through classifieds on discusforums). I got them in March 2007, so I've only had them 12 months. They were already adults - the guy was down grading & selling off his discus & apistos - so I don't know how old they are for sure. I guess they would have to at least 2 yrs old, if they were 12mths when I got them. How long do these live?

One of the girls with worms is still wearing her breeding dress (she had fry that I didn't know about, & they haven't survived the worming treatment).
a good bath may help them pass some worms (especially after a treatment) As well as the questions about the salt bath I asked in my earlier 2 posts, do I understand right that the Epsom salt bath is best directly after treatment. Last treatment was put into tank last Wednesday, so the next prazi treatment will go in tomorrow night. So, I'm thinking I'll do 2 Epsom salt treatments, one 48hrs after the next prazi treatment & the next 48 hrs after the final Big L treatment.

Does that sound right, or will I give them one before the prazi treatment.

Thanks again

[ILLUSN]

hey tank watcher, a bucket or ice cream container will do for the bath, after 15 min drop them back in the tank.

it worked really well when ever my bettas were bloated and a few times I've seen discus pass worms during a treatment, i assume it will work just as well for your dwarves. it will proably work better after a treatment as the worms are
1.dead or
2. not happy and more easily passed.

but give it ago, you could even go a stronger dose of 1tbs/4L, just watch the fish and if they show distress, drop them back into the main tank.

the worms could have come in with the live black worms (salt water pathogens dont last in fresh water so the brine shrimp should be fine) if they were old or dirty (how did they look before feeding).

only feed live fresh healty worms to fish (try and get them they day they arrive from the supplier).

[TW]

Thanks ILLUSN, your advice is really appreciated. I'll follow your advice. Should I treat the other symptomless fish with the epsom salt?
the worms could have come in with the live black worms In this case, I don't think so. The worms were present in the dwarves, prior to the worms. Because I am scared of the problems live worms can bring with them, I never use them - only if I have a new fish that refuses to eat, or in this case, where I soak the live worms in a prazi solution prior (hoping the worms eat some prazi & the prazi ends up in my fishes gut). Otherewise, there is absolutely no live black worms for any of my fish. So, the worms were in my dwarves PRIOR to the feeding of LBW (for the past 3 days).

Re: the brine shrimp. They looked fine - I always check the bag carefully. LFS gets them in Thursday night, but I didn't get them until Saturday. Not so happy with how they sell them now. Used to have them swimming around in a tank & they were only scooped out as someone purchased them. Now, they are all packed in little bags in the fridge (they always say only packed that day). Anyway, it was unusual I chose to feed them to my fish that day, but glad to hear you don't think they were the cause.

Do you know anything about aggie's lifespan & how long they normally should live?

Thanks once again

[fishgeek]

life span 2-3 years in my experience

do the fish look drawn or thin around the head?
what dose of medication are you using

andrew
personally i think healthy fish should be able to control worm burdens, when were you last wormed?

[ILLUSN]

Should I treat the other symptomless fish with the epsom salt?

Andrew's the vet and he should know best, if the other fish have no symptoms then even if they do have worms their immume system should have them under controle, still while you've got the bath set up it wouldn't hurt to give them all a dip.

they wont like it and will proably be skiddish for a day or so after.

[fishgeek]

appropriate levels of magnesium ions will just encourage a laxative effect(is that catharsis?) so should eb fine

healthy fish have a good ability to maintain osmotic balance and so will come through it easier than ill fish

andrew

[TW]

Thanks again for continued advice:-
do the fish look drawn or thin around the head? Other than one female has her breeding dress on, they look the same as they have the whole time I've had them (12 month). Except of course for the swollen anus, which wasn't there previously.


what dose of medication are you using Big L is 1ml per 7 Litres. (Fishgeek, I think you helped me out with Big L dosing quite some time back. ) Prazi is 1 tablet per 20L. 1 tablet = 100mg Prazi. Lights off during both treatments. Does this rate sound right?

[ILLUSN]

Your dosage is correct, both drugs work better if you can get the fish to injest them, try soaking some dry food in the levimenisole before feeding (Mals freezedried worms work very well, youd be amazed at how much liquid they can soak up).

[TW]

both drugs work better if you can get the fish to ingest them, try soaking some dry food in the levimenisole before feeding
Tried my best to do this - worked pretty well with Big L, but struggled to figure out how to get prazi into food. I grind prazi tabs up to as fine a powder as I can ( tablet crusher) but don't find it very water soluble - so I'm doubtful dry food will soak prazi up (only water IMO ??). So I came up with another idea - you helped me on this thread I linked here re liquid prazi in a bird wormer.
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15783&highlight= Also sunk to buying live black worms & fed worms a little prazi crushed tabs a few minutes before giving the worms to the apistos.

How do you get prazi into their food. At the moment, they don't recognize beef heart as food. If they recover, I might train them to eat it (as it's easier to mix med's with it) but how do you get prazi crushed tablet into food.

The two females & the male had their Epsom salt bath last night. The pt.Nigerian reds on the other side were too hard to catch (too heavily planted on that side), so they missed out. Tank is dark & covered right now (prazi in it), so I can't see how they are going for now.

I now have some of Mal's dried worms, but can't get them to sink. I think I will join the thread here about Mal's worms & ask how it's done.

[ILLUSN]

if the're not eating beefheart it will be harder to get the prazi into them, i crush my tablets and mix them with the beefheart mix and freeze it, i feed it frozen (i break it up with my fingernails) my fish swollow it whole so i know they get the meds.

you could try disolving it in some hot water and soaking some color bits in it once its disolved.

leave for 10 min or so and then feed this to the fish.

to add bigL to freeze dried worms pour off 30mls or so of bigL and soak the freezedried worms in it, they will swell and after 30min or so will be around 6x-8x their initial size, by this stage all the liquid should be gone, they'll sink when added to the water (most of my fish come eat it from my hand, but any missed food sinks).

put the remainder of the dosage into the water as normal.

[TW]

I am feeling more confident now that these girls will recover & it they do, it will be my 1st success in bring an apisto back from a health issue.

Not ready to put them back in the tank (they are in a small QT) as yet, but I'm so much happier with their body shape. Before, they both had such oversized & swollen anus, with visible worms hanging out.

Here are some blurry photos of them, taken just a little while ago. They are eating well. No visible worms now. Not sure if the one on the left still has a slight raise, or not. She just might need fattening up.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20Divided%20Tank/000_1943.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20Divided%20Tank/000_1942.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20Divided%20Tank/000_1941.jpg

[TW]

How long should I leave the girls in QT, now that they appear worm free. They started to appear worm free around 27-28 March, a day or so before the above pics were taken. I know it's too soon yet, but how till I can be sure they safe to return to the tank.

[Bubbles]

A proud moment for you TW - well done, I have not had much luck saving apisto's myself, only recently with my aggie tefe - she had gillflukes, I saved her but lost another female & 2 x male aggie tefe's from gillflukes, very proud TW - good job :thumb

[TW]

Thanks Bubbles, I'm pretty happy, as it's my 1st apisto save & for quite a while, I thought I was losing the battle.

How long do you think I should wait before returning them to their lonely male?