Buffer ratio way off the mark

[TimboS]

Hi All,

I have started using Seachem acid and alkaline buffer to drop my pH from 7.4 ish to around neutral. The KH out of the tap is 2.

Problem is, the ratios on the back (while stated for RO water), actually led my tank to rise appreciably in pH where it should have been lowering.

To fix it up and lower to neutral, the total content added to this tank has now been 10 teaspoons of acid and 7 of alkaline (therefore rising the KH to 5), but the pH is all over the place. Late yesterday afternoon it was about 6.9, this morning it was over 7.4, despite a rise in KH. (All of this for only about 110L of water !)

Can someone give me a better guide on how to use the products in combination?

(I think however, that since I am doing 25% water changes & waste removal every three days, I will just accept my normal low KH of 2 and only use the acid buffer for neutral pH since the tank shouldn't get much of a chance to develop enough nitric acid and what-not to actually lower the pH much, if at all, thereby alleviating the need for a strong buffer - I hope that sounds right !).

Timbo

[ILLUSN]

GET A GOOD PH PEN!!!

As KH goes up PH goes down!!!!!

add acid buffer only, 1 tsp/200L, let it cycle for an hour check ph, if still too high add another tsp, wait 1 hour check again.
keep going till you hit the value you want then leave it for 24 hours and check again, if its drifted up add another tsp and ytou should be fine, if its still stable you're all set.

The next time you make up a batch of water use the same ammount of buffer (e.g 2,3,4,5... tsp what ever ammount you added) and your away (check the Ph but it should be stable at the value you want)

[TimboS]

Umm, pH Pen? What is that?

OK - if I understand you correctly, if it took says 4 tsp for my tank and I do a 25% water change, add 1 tsp with all the other stuff with the new water.

I'll be buggered as to how it's supposed to be "easy" to lower and buffer pH with these products. If anything it made things worse than doing nothing to my tank wrt pH.

Need a CO2 system....

Another thing, the bottle of Alkaline buffer says it increases pH and KH, whereas the Acid buffer says it converts "available" KH to C02. So, first, Alkaline buffer does NOT increase KH? Second, how are you supposed to buffer with the two products if the acid buffer eats KH away ?!

[ILLUSN]

Sorry timbo, I assumed you were aging your water before it goes into your tank.


OK - if I understand you correctly, if it took says 4 tsp for my tank and I do a 25% water change, add 1 tsp with all the other stuff with the new water.

you can do that and it proably will work but I wouldn't advise you too.

a ph pen is a digital ph tester

http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/catalogue_products.php?prodID=3435&catID=22

if you have ro water there are no disolved minerals, adding alkaline buffer adds kH, this allows the water to resist swings in pH, adding acid buffer converts kH to CO2 and H2O.

adding both together some kH will go to Co2 reducing the pH, the remaining kH (in excess as the powder is almost pure kH) will buffer the water to prevent the pH from changing.

once equilibrium is reached the water will be stable.

DO NOT DO THIS IN A TANK WITH FISH IN IT!!!!!!!!!

the pH swings will stuff them.

If you cant age water then just leave your chemistry as it is, stability is more important, use CO2 with a ph controler to adjust your pH by a degree or 2 AT THE MOST! and bring it down by a max of 0.5 pH a day.

[TimboS]

When it comes to aging, I add Prime and so forth to the water buckets before they go into the tank. Is this the wrong thing to do ?

When it comes to the buffers however, they go directly into the tank, since it's printed on the back of the containers that it's safe to add directly to the aquarium. I take it that is definitely wrong and I should not trust a company as supposedly knowledgable like Seachem ?

I *now* know I have been doing the wrong thing, but, ahem, what do you mean by "stuff them"? In my other post about a change in pecking order, would the change in pH make my female sick somehow?

I am in the middle of a sterazin treatment - can I do a large water change to get the buffers out and wait until tomorrow (day 6) to add the next required dose with minimal impact to the worming regime ?

[ILLUSN]

the ph fluctuations can disrupt their biochemistry, resulting in stress, when discus get stressed they loose their appitite and get sick.

I advise everyone to aged their water for a full 24hrs before it goes into their discus tank, it should be dechlorinated and heated and pH adjusted.

I understand that its not always possible to do that, and before i had my aging tank sorted i did what you do and heated the water by adding boiling water from the kettle to 30C, it took hours to do a change but the fish loved it.

All you can do is do the best that you can, stability is probably the most important thing to keep your fish stress free and happy, if you like, try adding small ammounts of buffer to the tank, maybe 1/4tsp at a time to bring it down slowly, but if your fish are happy enough to spawn as they have for you before then the system you have is fine and needs no adjustment.

[TimboS]

I see the idea and tend to agree.

What about the water change in the middle of a sterazin treatment ?

[ILLUSN]

hold off on the water change till the treatment is over, other wise you'll have to start again.

[TimboS]

I put the male discus into a breeding net yesterday afternoon and the female came out almost immediately and started pigging out something shocking !

Also tested the water and it had bounced back up to something like pH of 7.3, which is where I started before all this buffer business. So, certainly no water change since I have administered day 6 of the Sterazin treatment this morning. I just hope it kills all the blackworm that made it into the sand uneaten since these were the little trouble makers that give the fish worms in the first place !

The male discus is going to be traded in at a certain aquarium business for a replacement or three. Just don't know if I want to gamble with a tank of four (albeit one subadult and three juveniles).

[ozarowana]

What wrong with keeping discus at pH 7.4???? The less you add to the water the better.

[TimboS]

Nothing I guess.

But is slightly acid not better for the fish in terms of improved slime coat, etc ?

[ozarowana]

Personally I would just use your tap water. I don't think a change of 0.4 pH units will show much noticable difference. If you are new to discus they will be happier with a stable pH.

IMO by adding buffers to get the right pH you also increase TDS which I guess is counter productive.

[TimboS]

TDS?

[ozarowana]

Total dissolved salts

[TimboS]

Ah, yes.

I priced CO2 a couple of days ago for pH maintenance and, well, ouch.