bugger bugger bugger

[gingerbeer01]

Today culled two tetra - curved back bones came on in last week. and got to cull a bitaeniata - bloated - I am assuming TB.

I think I am going to quaratine that tank and keep culling anything that looks slightly off and see if all is OK in 1 year. There goes my bitaeniata, rams and aggies for breeding play but. ( Baby aggies growing out - baby rams growing out and bitaeniata guys waiting for any likely girls are all in the tank.

Planning on spending the weekend steralising tanks.

[ILLUSN]

thtas proably the most responsible thing to do, you'll have to isolate any equiptment used on that tank to.

if your up for it take an efected fish to a vet and ask for a mycobcter culter (TB culture).

i cant think of anydrugs that will help you.

[gingerbeer01]

Don't think it is worth the effort - as the culture is I understand difficult to culture due to slow growth and antibiotics are hit and miss.

What do you use to sterlise tanks nowdays. Last time I steralised a tank was when there was an Aqausonic product called steral - not sure what was in it but it worked.

Steve

[Noddy65]

I have a paper/link on sterilising tanks and equipment after a TB outbreak...its in my computer which is on a truck somewhere between Perth and Sydney...Ill pots a link once Ive got access to it.

Mike

[fishgeek]

rifampicin is used more commonly in tb case's

when 30% of tropical hobby fish are supposedly affected by tb where do you intend to purchase replacements that are clean?

just playing devils advocate


sterilsation as mycobacter are associated with soil should be achievable with empty tanks salt paste and sunlight, i think that should give you good enough dessication to rid the glass of the problem

boiling or pressure cooking the substrate if you wish to reuse it

can double check the texts for anything more tb specific
any open lesions?
the culture is a good idea because you may fins that your assumption of tb is wrong and you dont have to be so aggressive in your treatment

andrew

[gingerbeer01]

Andrew and Mike - what do you guys reckon.

I think it must have come with the bitaeniata I got. They bred soon after I got them and the female bloated and died immediatly after breeding. Two spare males dumped in the main tank.

Next lost a male Ram - didn't really notice much there and it was after he went back in the tank having bred. Thought the other male had took a dislike to him. Didn't really look carefully.

Early this week notice one of my black phantoms had developed bend in back bone - looked more carefully and found a white tip tetra with bend as well. (White tips are quite old and down to 3 from a shool of 8 bought about 3 years ago - black phantoms are about 1 year in my tank)

Male Bitaeniata is bloated - couldn't catch him this morning to Cull.

[*Chris*]

you can use nu cleanz bleach save for fish

[gingerbeer01]

culled the two bitaeniata and another tetra - got to go catch another black phantom now.

[Th0mas]

I had to agree in regard to the problem on TB with fish. It's too common, and the incubation period takes too long before you know your tank has been contaminated.

Hence these days I keep all fish in separate tanks. All new comers goes into a tank all by themselves. They'll remain there until I'm happy with them (or they're happy and can stay there permanently).

That's my way of working around the problem - at least it help in containing the infection if one exist.

[Noddy65]

To try and have TB free apistos Ive been pulling eggs and hatching them in a tank seperate from the adults and they NEVER go back into tanks that have had fish from sources Im not sure of.
Im pretty happy now that the baenschi and pebas I have are TB free.
If I get an outbreak I toss out everything in the tank and bleach the tank using the protocol mentioned in the paper above (the house furniture and computer arrive in Sydney on thursday). The only things I keep are the 'hard' objects (heater, internal section of the sponge filter and the tank itself, everything else gets tossed).
The other precaution is to by from sources you know are a bit anal about TB ie other breeders. but thats no guarentee of course.

Mike

[Th0mas]

Hi Mike,

The baenschi from me didn't have TB - as the left over from the batches which I sent from are still around and alive (sorry - just had to clear myself from this TB suspicion). Any sign of TB contamination would pretty much guarantee they're dead by now.

I'll do whatever I can to ensure what comes out of my setup is TB free. If there's a doubt with any one of the fish in a tank, nothing will leave that tank for at least 3 months (under observation). I won't even try to salvage the "potentially healthy" fish to reduce the chance of spreading the contamination.

Thomas.

[Noddy65]

Sorry Thomas...didnt mean you...you are one of the trusted breeders I mentioned above.
I had some female baenschis from Melbourne.....I wasnt too sure about them.

Mike

[gingerbeer01]

Identified another 3 black phantoms plus 1 from this morning. 1 male and 1 female definite - another 2 girls suspect and won't wait.

[Th0mas]

Steve,

Sounds like it's not getting any prettier.....

Hopefully your guess is wrong - but it's better to be safe than sorry.

Ensure you've got some protective gears on while you catch the infected fish - there's report fish TB can spread to human (can get rather nasty).

Hopefully the worst will be over soon.

[DiscusEden]

I'm no expert (and I'm happy to have more knowledgable souls here overrule me), but I did some reading on the TB transfer to human thing after having a gourami die a couple of years ago.

The jury seems to be out on whether this is a strain of TB that is transmisable, but if it is, it seems to only apply if there's an active outbreak in the tank & a break in your skin that's emersed in the water.

Having said that, I still wore gloves.

Good luck with the outbreak of whatever it is.

[Robdog]

My information is pretty similar to DE's. I'm very willing for Andrew or Mike to come and say it's all porky's though.
I might be wrong but I seem to remember Crocky having a close call with something along these lines.

[Noddy65]

Im not sure about needing an active infection in the tank but a break in the skin is required (this can be very small though).
The owner of one of the LFS had a case of cutaneous TB just before I left, nasty looking wound on his hand, swollen lymphatics (I assume its the lymphatics) running up his arm, failed to respond to 'normal' antibiotics. He ended up being on antibiotics for around 3 months or so.

Mike

[gingerbeer01]

I have been directed on another forum to a article that suggests that Mycrobacterium marinum cannot sustain typically at a temp of 37 degrees.

Gonna give it a try - and have a hot bath myself just in case LOL

[fishgeek]

here's http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/TB/AquaTB.htm a whole list of links

scroll down a bit some are not so aquatic related

tb is a soil organsim, and as such is generally associated with substrate, or similar
once getting into animals(yes it is possible for people to get it.. the open wound allows easier entry) it produces a significant body response.. the tb granuloma, these reactions stop penetration of antibiotics to the bacterial orgnaism making it hard to clear

iodine has been used to aid break down of the granuloma and increase antibiotic penetration
iodine hand wash is probably a useful post fish tanking routine


you guys must be aware of the helicopters shooting cow's up north .. thats tb control! so it isnt that easy to treat in anything

andrew

[fishgeek]

just thought arent we all vaccinated at school?
is there cross protection with bcg?

andrew

[Noddy65]

Hmmm...thats a very interesting question re vaccination...

Mike

[DiscusEden]

I was vaccinated at school, but when I started employment for the health service, they made it a condition of employment to have a mantoux test (for TB immunity).

They said at that time that for many people who are vaccinated, the vaccine is not effective (ie they have no immunity), and that even a positive result for immunity is not necessarily a guarantee that you won't contract it if you're exposed. Something about graded levels of response.

But I could be wrong.

[fishgeek]

graded levels of response, means there is always an exceptpion to the rule :wink: great for medical liabilty issue's

we are all individuals even in response to vaccination and then further challenge

[DiscusEden]

So... we're thinking even if you've been vaccinated & the mantoux teast shows it worked, wear gloves in the tank if we know there's a problem?

This can't be happening that often, or we would have heard more surely (the transmission to humans), so surely there has to be a fairly low risk even though the majority of fish have it? Or is it just bad information flow?

What I mean is, should we be taking precautions regardless, or is it a fairly low risk unless there's an outbreak?

[Rod]

I suppose you could wear gloves...an oxygen mask
sterilize everything before and after use

or take a risk that you may be unlucky....get a cut infected and have to go on a course of antibiotics.

Personally....I'm happy to take my chances....you have a better chance of winning Lotto!

Look at the Hospitals....they can't even get on top of some of the bugs that are about....what chance does a fish hobbyist have!!!

When I think of what I've put my hands in....syphons I've sucked on....that's it! Perhaps I'm immune!

[gingerbeer01]

Did you know it is more likely that you will be struck by lightning, or have your house spontaneously colapse around you then win powerball. Yes I sat down one day and looked up the odds of all events.

It is hard to get a 6 foot tank up to 37 degrees. Discus love it - angels are sweating but.

[gingerbeer01]

ahhh - and the theory is that the bug cannot reproduce above 37 degrees - and the average human temperature internally is 37 - that might be why hard to get

[fishgeek]

it is low risk, i dont know specifically why

even bovine tb was only really seen when aerosolising meat and breathing infective particles
ie abattoir workers

[gingerbeer01]

I decided this morning enough - the higher temperature made the fish suffer too much - rapid breathing - some deaths - not all.

Decided for a remedy that may not work I could not stand it. So putting fish down and steralising tank.

[gingerbeer01]

Well - what a horrible day. But done and tank bleached and now running for a week to rinse everything - mega prime does to steralise every bit of chlorine and then 100% change or two next weekend.

Blant were bleached and in bucket outside to see how they go - debating throwing them too.

Will not be reusing drift wood. Just in case.

[DiscusEden]

Sorry to hear that gingerbeer, but I think you made the right (very difficult) call.

Any idea what you're going to use the tank for when it's ready to get going again?

[gingerbeer01]

Kinda thinking of doing an igwami with plants. LOL

My thought is to try and follow the igwami rock placing style. This will give a really strong formation to work with that is artistic in it's own right. Also thinking this way makes me focus on the rocks as and for themselves. I say some nice dark blackish rocks on another forum that looked like what I want. I have a blue background to factor in with rock colour.

As the tank is a 6 foot 15 wide by 18 tall - it is kinda a tricky tank too make look good. It is too long for the eye so have to draw to investigate with the eye.

Once I have something strong of itself I am planning to merge with plants - mainly swords - I have amazons and one with big round leave and thinking of getting a red leaved sword, or red crypts probably better. Also want to get some aponogeten crispus or similar for long trailing leaves at surface. Using one of the chain swords for general ground cover.

Thinking mainly vertical growth and rocks will make tank look deeper.

Fish wise the kids endlers are probably going in there. I kinda like the idea of strong rocks - soft plants subtle piles of coloured fish.

Apistos for the bottom - but maybe just Borelie and no mixing to reduce risk of repeat. Might change my mind and add checkerboards too but.

Also thinking that these guys should be able to cohabitate as breeding populations without impacting each other.

Some ottos for algae control - will resist the impulse of whiptails. Could add some shrimp actually instead - that would be fun and with dwarf dwarfs (LOL) like borelie might even work.....

Anyway still more cleaning next weekend running with high prime for a week after bleaching. Also got to prime my little rack of breeders.

[fishgeek]

be aware that strong chlorine solutions can weaken the silicon bond

[gingerbeer01]

I bleached the tank, rinsed it and then filled it with high prime dose to make sure no residue anywhere. Just call me paranoid.

Saw some nice red hump geos this week and thinking of adding them. Bit of a change - well my son wants to buy them and needs somewhere to put them.