discus plaque

[Xtreme]

hi all,
a friend of mine had just bought a number of discus over
a period of 3mths.
he bought 15cms fish 6-7cms fish nice fish too might i say
then all of a sudden 1 discus went black,1/2 an hour later
he was hiding in amongst the rocks,then within 1hr all the fish where going to the top
he checked his ph fine it was 6.8,checked ammonia 1.0ppm
he done 2 water changes over the next 2 days he took 300ltrs out each time from a 750ltr tank he then treated for plaque but to no luck
all discus r dead now.
my question is how and what do u all of you do to treat plaque
cause i think condees crystals (not sure on spelling lol)might work but
takes too long
salt might work but takes too long too
what can treat and cure within 2hrs is my other question
cheers wayne

[kalebjarrod]

i would love to have an answer for you wayne but i have never seen the plague or had to deal with it

Sorry

[kevkoi]

Wayne, the disease may be viral. The problem is that too often velvet is misdiagnosed as the "discus plague". If it is trully the "plague", there is little you can do about it as it is viral.

Jack Watley wrote an article about it a while back and he claims to have managed to halt some losses with reducing the pH down to very acidic levels (we are talking pH 4-4.5). Even then, he did sound like he was fighting a losing battle.

Malaysian fisheries and a number of Malaysian scientist are atm doing a lot of research on this and I believe they have isolated the culprit. A vaccine may be available shortly, but the innoculation process is not simple nor cheap. I have some inside knowledge of what is going on atm, but am not at liberty to say anything more as there is a lot of commercial interest riding on this atm.

:wink:

[CMDiscus]

Oh! Discus plague, I think it has no more transcend man's knowledge,for this so-called "Black disease" you must based on empiricism to fix your problem ,follow sceince theory yet give you no answer. :o hahaha!!!

[DIY]

????? :?

Sorry I don't understand that statement at all I have 20 Discus - must be my childish mind LOL :lol:

[CMDiscus]

Goodday! mate,
That was the easier way to choose username and it could be writtten with many ways provided the space is wide enough to fill in. e.g:I have 20 discus .........all are in black uniform,I have 20 discus.....they have gone thru the plague,I have 20 discus ....waitng for migration. why sweat for small stuff? :lol:


Fme,discus plague is very similar to human virus ;herpes simplex,first infection will be more severe and take longer time to recover,subsequent reccurrences will be happened when they under stress condition,during the incubation period it could infect other tank mate of those which have not gone thru the "Black disease",that's why some of the fish have got the infection before will only turn black but easier to treat without any mortality,some discus said to be disease-free and healthy discus die after mixing with viral carriers is of this reason for they can't withstand the first severe infection, especially adult discus,some hobbyisits give the wrong medication can be the possiblity to kill all of your fish.

Be patient,the incubation period of the virus will take 7 to 10 days,do not raise the temp. too high,just remain between 28 to 30'c will be alright,do not express the treatment with overdosed meds.,I reckon antibiotics will be the best stuff to reduce the severity of their pains.

That is the empiricism I share with you here.

[kalebjarrod]

i am totally confused :?

[DIY]

Ryan - that makes 2 of us :lol:

[CMDiscus]

Vaccine for virus ? No way !
so far,there is no active immunity except passive immunity till now,the simplest way is by introduce one viral carrier into the tank with those have not gone thru the infection at the size of 2 " or a bit smaller,once the infected fish get stressed it will infect the whole tank,that's the way !
After that you will notice these fish will be tougher once they recover from the first infection. as other has mentioned in other forums the so-called "commando Discus"
But the person who shared with this method has gone to stay in China :D

I learnt from him that some of the red spotted strains died without any symptom after they purchase ,it could be the possiblityof internal organs damages;liver,spleen,kidneys.

Causes: Toxic chemical has been used to enrich the red color spotted or feeding with fresh water shrimp eggs to enrich red coloration which have been preserved with formalin by dealer.especially some fresh water shrimp eggs supplied from Bangkok.some using overdosoed ferrous;pill for iron deficiency or for pregnant women will damage the liver as well, and some using red booster has the same defect if overdosed.

" All that glitters are not gold"
The so-called quality discus with nice color but no efficiency considered junks. I would rather buy cheaper discus with natural color than paying a fortune for the new strians with artificial color.

Hobbyists can compare the growing rate in between then you will witness which is better.

But,don't be too happy that your fish eat like pirahnas and grow faster,remember too much feeding will result to fatty liver that they will never breed,unless you raise them for competition require the oversized Discus only for show with no production.

[DIY]

So what you're saying is that discus should be exposed to the "plague" at 2 inches in size to build an immunity to the disease.

Your'e also saying that most if not all of the new strains with red in them are "juiced" or doctored in some dangerous way that will cause problems.

and lastly don't overfeed so much as to get you're discus overweight and become sterile..

May I ask where you are from I have 20 Discus?

[CMDiscus]

DIYjunkie,
At 2" size is easier to look after and easier for sales after they out of quarantine,fish with no immunity bigger than 3" are with higher mortality during process,adult fish is the worst if they come cross the first infection in their life time.

Not all new strains and red fish with red color enhencer are dangerous,unless they have been treated with the mentioned toxicants.
It is better to ask the dealer or breeders of what they have used to enrich the red coloration to their fish before it is too late to trace the aetilogy of their mortality.

Yes,we can say most of the oversized discus are sterilized,female too fat might be egg-binding and later become non-spawner or cut down the frequency of spawn compare with normal females which could spawn more than 8 times a year if under proper care with good enviroment and water condition.

mate,check my signature :wink:

[weird]

welcome "I have 20 Discus" ! I think your name will change very soon, after hanging around our forum ! You will have alot more discus. I think one member here has atleast 20 tanks of discus in the garage.

Wayne, best of luck with your problem ... sure you have discus plaque and not a bad case of velvet like Kev suggested ? Plaque ? What is that ?

[CMDiscus]

Weird,
Thanks a lot,yes,It will at least take another few months for me to change it.


I reckon many hobbyists have heard about the plague and learning dialectical methods from forums,I suggest the best way is to experience it with your empirical method that will benifit you for life.

"I hear and I forget,I see and I remember,I do and I understand."
(confucius 450 BC)

[kevkoi]

Here's an article about the disease.
http://www.aquaria.info/faqs/plague.htm

Disease is most likely viral, causing the immune system lapse and secondary bacterial and other infections to set in. Treatment seems to be treating the secondary syptoms (with antibiotics) and letting the fish's immune system try and overcome the viral on it's own.

Think of it as "small pox" in humans.

I find that the comment on letting the discus get exposed to the plague on its own accord to make it "stronger" disturbing. We are importers and handle between 400-1000 discus a month coming thru quarantine and getting distributed around Australia. Say even if the losses from this disease is 30%, that is still a heluva lot of fish and heluva lot of loss. Then the next thing is that once the disease is in the population of your discus, they become carriers and transmit the disease on to other new fish..... this is NOT GOOD for the industry and not good for the hobbyist.

We know that some shops that have been hit severely by what we believe may be the plague has taken a while to recover (They have had to stop stocking discus or any of the fish which may be cariers for a while) and some hobbyist have bought fish from breeders only to watch these fish (being carriers) infect all their other large fish in their collection with high mortalities.

All in all, it's not a good thing.

The source of where the fish comes from and being on the farm to actually see their full stock is paramount to try and avoid the "black disease".

kev

[CMDiscus]

"Prevention is better than cure" Maybe this appllied to other species.

how often and how long can you prevent your discus from the first infection? do you want your dfiscus to die after you have been keeping them for months?
I dare said after the year 1986 this varus has spread all over the world,that is to say there are carriers in countries where they have discus and on and off there will be raided by the recurrences of this disease.

The difference between chicken pox and herpes is that;chicken pox hit every sigle individual only once in her/his life time and get immunized naturally,nowadays it can prevent by vaccine too,but, there is still none for Herpes simplex,so, it raid the carriers several times once they are under stress condition,that means the carriers will have several recurrences in their life time,it is adviserable to use the method of "taking shower in the raincoat" during the incubation period. :lol:

The problem for our discus is that,no one in the world can discern the unexposed and carriers in Discus.Will the breeders or importers be honest enough to tell the purchasers those fish they are selling are carriers,will they explain to buyers that these fish will create problem for their existing discus; (the said to be healthy fish and never expose to disease before) and the advantages of carriers are tougher for they have hit by the primary infection and the subsequent reccurrences will be easier to treat? that at least the newbies will have the choice and preparation of what they purchase.

Discus has no raincoat except two layers of body slimes and they surrounding by opportunistic parasites,once they are under stress condition and the body does not function well to produce the slime as the bandage fast enough to cover the wound,trichodina is the NO.1 disease helper which penetrate into the second layer of slime to irritate the skin hence become the black discus,if the body has built up the antibody against the skin allergy,trichodina will do no harm to them,from our experience trichodina is the natural parasite,no matter how you disinfect your fish and tank yet it comes back to say Hello! unlike other parasites and pathogens can be killed and cured.

[Trebs]

Ammonia of 1ppm? 0.25ppm of ammonia is enough to get in some serious trouble. No wonder they all dropped off at that level. I'd say the ammonia was enough to turn them all black and kill them off with or without discus plague. Those w/c wouldn't have been enough to get the ammonia done to an acceptable level either.

Now on to discus disease. I've spoken to a few people that have had 'discus plague' and have treated it with varying degrees of success.

I can't remember the exact treatment but it primarily revolves around raising temps(30degrees), salt, and using a dilute bleach solution to clear the slime/mucus from the gills. Don't take this as a 'how to'. If I get to speak to the guy again I'll get exact instructions and repost.

I've been very conservative with buying discus and I won't be buying any more now. I'm very happy with the ones I have and can't justify risking them. Basically if I pick up an infected fish that will probably be the end of my breeding setup.

I must say I'm very suprised that this is the first discussion I've seen on the subject in this forum. I've seen quite a few imported discus with the disease in both aquariums and at wholesalers.

[CMDiscus]

Many of you listen to the dialectic mehtods of using all different kinds of meds. and chemical to cure and disinfect the parasites,I suggest,you must dare to try and find the goal by yourself,remember,different water condition must apply different dosages or meds. ,some fixed the problem with certain kinds of meds.but you kill your fish with the same dosage and meds. for example;people who has the soft water tells you to use P.permanganate,but you kill your fish in your hard water with the same stuff and dosage,tetra cycline can't work in hard water but it kills your fish in soft water with overdosed.

Formalin can kill gill and body flukes but overdosed and too often in use might slow the growth of your fish and later become stunted (big eyes)

Deworm with praziquantel works well,have you found out it has the side effect similar with overdosed formalin?

Metronidazole is a good stuff for treatment of internal worms,do you know it can reduces the frequency of spawn of adult female and sterilize the males for a period of time?

I suggest the best way is by empirical method to experience with your water condition and enviroment rather than killing your fish with the dialectical methods. perhaps,you can ask the medical doctor how they treat the Herpes simplex and with what med.they reduce the severity of the infection during the incubation period,maybe,you can gain some new knowledge of treating the Discus "Black disease"

P/N: Human patients with Herpes simplex can take Acyclovir tablets during the incubation period ,it helps to minimize the recurrences during their life times,after years , there is a possiblity for them to free from infection. If you don't believe you can check with experienced doctors.



They are many experts on forums tell you the science theory,perhaps,they have never wet their hands with the sick discus in the stinking water,maybe we are a little suspecting their methods.

We are now living in the world of flux,with the information from the internet ,there are many people who don't go to school yet they get more knowledge and people who get the paper show the degree come out with no idea,Bill gate who left out from college can become the billionaire,I think some of you still don't know the father of Heckle discus;Johann jacob Heckel (1790-1857) he was just a practitioner with no Ph.D. degree and never graduate from a university yet he became a scientist.

Here we all can be the amateur practitioners if we are interested in Discus keeping and there is no one can stop us from practising. :wink:

I am just similar to recurrence of disease,on and off once in a while,so,it is time for me to say GOODBYE!

[Trebs]

Mate, you need to think about what you are saying a little more.

Firstly, why would you advocate exposing discus to discus plague if you don't know how to treat it? I my experience an outbreak of discus disease will kill a lot of fish even when treated 'successfully'.

Next there is your link between discus plague and herpes. So both are viral and are caracterised by periodic outbreaks. What is that proof of? Nothing. If there is a link does that help treat discus plague in my aquarium? No. So what's your point?

Please indulge my curiosity, how many discus have you had with the plague? How did you treat them? What was the mortality rate?

Don't make outlandish claims without backing up your views. Discussion is fine but when you make statements as you have done above people will read them and put them into practice.

[CMDiscus]

Mate,
You must practise with different therapy of how to minimize the mortality, I know someone who can treat the fish with less than 5% of motality in each quarantine period of 2,000 pcs. at 2" size.
As mentioned before,you must find out your water condition and room ventilation then experiment with different meds.I am sure one day you will be satisfied by one of the methods you applied .below I copied from the book to tell you the differences.

Immunization
An attempt to make the body resistant to a disease by injecting a specific
substance that in some way prevents or lessens the effects of the disease.

In active immunization a vaccine is given that stimulates the body's protective mechanisms to prepare antibodies that fight the disease when it is encountered.

Passive immunization is used when an individual has already been exposed to the disease.


In Quarantine
I am sure many dealers will like to have the express sales rather than quarantine them with high mortality and you could hardly find they send their imported discus for "Active surveilance" ;that is to kill the fish for sampling program,but,they can only detect the parasites and pathogens not the virus of the so-called "Black Disease".

In passive surveilance is the best way for our discus as we can't discern whether they are carriers or not,then a discus has been exposed to "Black disease" is a must to introduce into the new arrivals' tank to check the outbreak.


Disease control
Some breeders and dealers raise up high temp. and feeding their discus by mixing some antibiotics in the beefhearts to control the diseases,I reckon that is the main problem when they next have an outbreak in the importers' QT rooms or hobbyists' tanks. Maybe this is the reason why some hobbyists or importers scratch their heads and find no way to save their fish and result to the high mortality.


The aetiology of your supplies is more important than your high expertise in treating fish.( Causes have mentioned in previous posts)

I am very happy to share with you people here and I wish you will have a better idea of keeping your discus.

[kevkoi]

So in other words, if I put a discus infected or is a carrier of the "discus plague" virus (we are all only speculating that it is viral.. it most likely is, but the pathogen has yet to be isolated and published... I have yet to see the enemy's ugly face in an electron microscope picture) into your tank of 20 discus...... What would you do? (other than curse me for dropping that darned sick fish off!!)

U have about 7-10days of incubation time of which u really wouldn't know you have the problem, and when that's up, ur fish are keeling over one at a time rather quickly and not looking good. What is your course of action? No point telling us that dialectic methods aren't the go..... No point talking about passive immunisation. Got to get your fish to SURVIVE first to get any passive immunisation. What's YOUR method? The clock is ticking.... U are losing fish. Ur 20 discus is now down to 15..... keep fumbling and u'll be down to 10. So what is it? PP dip? Formalin dip? Formalin bath?? Tetracycline? Doxycycline?? Neomycin??? Lower the pH? Increase the Heat?

*Meanwhile my carrier fish is happily swimming around, having his usual munch of beefheart mix and wondering what the fuss is all about.....

-------------
Please kindly fill out your profile on location. Filling it out would give us some insight to where you are from and what conditions are alike or different to us.

[Trebs]

Okay, so say this person you know treats 2000 discus and loses 5%. I assume those fish are then exported/sold? What is the mortality rate of the fish when they reach wholesalers? retailers? hobbyists tanks?

What do they do? '... practice with different therapy of how to minimize the mortality...'?

Immunisation? With what? Do you inject each discus at 2"? That sounds great. What would you immunise with anyway?

Active Surveillance? You've already knocked that one off if we are talking about a virus (not that anyone would know what to look for anyway).

Disease Control? Why would suppliers be using antibiotics harmful to their fish if they can use your magical method? Or are you and your friend have a patent on it?

After all that I go back to my question, reiterated by Kevkoi:

What is the treatment method? Please state water conditions as you have already asserted that they are important to the process.

[CMDiscus]

Goodday! mates,
When I first hand pick my 20 discus from the shop where he got supplies from Asia,one of of them was a carrier that infected the rest of them,but,I was lucky that I have learnt the knowledge from my friend the man who treat his fish with passive immunization as to build up their anitbodies,I was impressed by his experience at other site and get to know him later,just imagine,without his advice,I reckon I was not be able to saved the whole lot of them,right now,they have gone thru the first infection of the "Black disease" ,According to my friend said the fish now have built up the antibodies to against the skin allergy,with the transfer of the change of water condition or skin parasites irritation will be minimized,their bodies now can function well to protect their immused system,but,they still can't escape from the recurrences of the herpes once they are under stress condition.No worry! they can be fixed fast,unlike those have no antibody can't tolerate any extrinsic parasitic invasion.

My friend told me he was once a regular to many forums and got bashed by other posters who selling their stuffs there, reason dued to disclosing too much to newbies and got banned,I reckon that was similar to a forum without carriers to immunize the newbies,therefore they are weak with no antibody;(No improvement in keeping discus). :lol: :lol: :lol:

He said to me discus business is a sh!t with too much gossips and can't made a fortune,to keep it as a hobby is o.k,but,try not to spend too much time in that hobby ,in a long run in that community your reputation will be ruined by your competitors or that stupic discus.
I found he is right ,as we often find there are many argument on the nets fighting about the claims of bad supplies,I wouldn't do it if that is to cause too much trouble and gain only small profits.

Trebs,
I have been to his quarantine room once,the set up was in a dark room and he showed me the quarantined stocks with a torchlight,they were all black with white patches on the bodies but still looking for foods, the water is so clean didn't show color of meds.,temp.is the same for normal discus at 28'C.,beefheart mixed with spirulina and other vitamins,no antibiotic in the food for sure.

He is dealing with only two customers,one in the state and one in europe,they both always find shortage of supplies for they sell only post -quarantined fish at reasonable prices,they cut down the trouble and high expenses in running the quarantine room in their countries except increase the holding tanks,unlike other importers spending heaps of money on labours,space,drugs and time,up to the end still have to loose money if they get the bad supplies from asia.

From my last post that was to told you the differences,you know there is no active immunization for Discus,at present,he is still using passive immunization with introduction of carriers to the new arrivals' tanks,that's it. treat them with antibiotics for a specific time according to the pharmist.

He know the disease outbreak is going to happen anyway,so,he don't use heat to control them,just let them adapt to the enviroment and treat them with his own therapy once he found the symptom onset.
He drops the temp. only when he counter check as to make sure the fish out of quarantine are safe for exports.
Sudden drop in temp. may increase viscosity of plasma membrane of T lymphocyte,which depress antibody responses and increase the susceptiblility to infections,that is the reason why he said to me. with his hard work in quarantine no wonder his customers stick to him.

Antibiotics can be used for treating bacteria provided the right dosage and timing are given,some people just dump into the tanks without any measurement and prolong the period,so,it becomes toxic and resistant.

I know there are many drugs they have been using in their discus diseases,they can save the discus but it spoil the internal organs if overdosed or over too long the duration.

1) Formalin 2) Dethol 3) Neguvon/dipterex/dylox

4) P.permanganate 5) Tinture Iodine 6) chlorine

P/N: dosage and method (dip,bath or long duration) applied by experiment on your water condition,you have to take your own risk of trying them and I have no gurantee that you won't retard the growth of the fish or damage the reproductive organ by dipterex.

[Trebs]

My aim is not to get you kicked off the forum. If we all go back to not discussing discus disease then that doesn't help anybody.

I'm happy to hear what you say and discuss it. What you have said however you are yet, for my mind been able to back it up adequately. I'll continue to challange your views until I'm satisfied.

Discus disease is a very sensitive subject an I'm not surprised by the reaction you may have got on other forums. As for me I don't think I'll ever embrace the idea of exposing fish that are 'clean'. I am however interested in any knowledge you have of treating it once it is in place. That can only be of benefit for all of us.

In counter to your method of exposing discus I still have grave reservations even if there are minimal losses. That is because as soon as the fish are transported they get stressed and out comes discus disease. Then it is left to wholesalers, retailers and hobbyists it bare the losses as this is where discus disease is truely the problem.

[CMDiscus]

Many people are interested in breeding discus try to make some coffee money to cover the hobby,they understand breeding of fish is a fun, treating of fish is an art,it is common that you get your fish to have the first spawn in your life you will be very excited,but,the first infection in your discus will be a different story.

Many new breeders have cleaned fish room with no infection raid before and the babies are always easier to raise without any symptom,once they have too many they have to get rid of them to clear the space,where can they sell their fish? hobbyists or pet shops are mainly their outlets,what happen if the purchaser already has some existing discus are carriers?
in this case will the purchaser complain to the breeders that whose supplies are no good? the breeder defitnitely say to purchaser that his fish are 100% healthy and cleaned at premise before departure ? will they have an argument? will the buyer go out and spread the rumour that so and so rip him off with unhealthy discus and ruin the reputation ?

May I ask you? will you let other discus on the market kill your discus or you prefer yours to kill others instead? if breeders aware of this problem they must first immunize their fish before sales,otherwise,the new arrivals and existing discus problem will never end.

You can win me only until you find the active immunization,otherwise your fish will only create problem for you,it is not feasible to follow the science theory with all prevention and restriction for your discus,ultimately,they still can't escape from the infection. I give you sometime to find out from discus market of which is better and safer,hobbyists will give you the better answer.

[Trebs]

You don't need to convince me breeding discus is not a license to print money!

My question still remains the same. How many of these discus that have been exposed to discus disease are going to make it to the hobbyists tanks +3 months? That's the figure that needs to be judged not the 5% when they leave the discus farm/breeders tanks.

As for the argument 'I'll get them before they get me' is pretty weak. If everyone subscribes to that then discus disease will be everywhere.

Lastly, as an example, say I buy 10 discus from a source that uses your method. They get discus disease when I pick them up as a result of the stress of bagging and transport. What do I need to do to solve the problem? I can't realistically as a hobbyist go through X number of batches before I find a treatment by experimenting. I haven't beeen able to find anything hard and fast from what you have offered so far in this thread.

[CMDiscus]

You meant how many disease-exposed discus to be added to the hobbyists tank for surveillance? one (1) number will be enough,but,it won't infect anyone untill it get stressed and recur.if you buy it from a distant journey with low temp.during transit,that will tell you within few days after you mix it with your existing discus,if your existing discus have been exposed to disease before they will just have a slight body color change and you can raise the temp.and fix it within few days with antibiotics or salt and acriflavin solution available from pet shops. if existing discus come from the cleaned farm never know what is "Black disease" that will scare you off with disaster,many hobbyists are then give up the hobby.

[Xtreme]

there is a treatment in the works atm
hopefully it will be for sale in the near future
i think there is only 3 products in it
ohh and its from a sydney sider :shock:
he came across the 3rd product by accident :?
cheers wayne

[kalebjarrod]

i have 20 discus

have you infected your discus to try any methods?

are you preparing too?

how many of your discus are you prepared to lose for us all to gain the knowlege?

[CMDiscus]

I don't need to try it,because I have another friend who learnt it and preparing the same method now,my intention here is to introduce this method for those at this forum who have encountered with the discus disease and yet can't find out a better solution to fix it,perhaps,this could be a knowledge for them to understand further.

How many discus you prepare to loose?

"You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it"
(Baroness Margaret Thatcher)

[Trebs]

Wayne,

I still think water quality is your number 1 concern. With an ammonia level of 1ppm you can't say your fish died from discus disease. 1ppm of ammonia should be enough to kill any tropical fish I'm aware of.

[Xtreme]

trebs,
mayb but at the time of just b4 it started there was no ammonia
zero but with big water changes of aged and heated water the ammonia went down quiet quickly so i dont think the slime coating coming off the fish was from ammonia burn
i think a lot of wholesalers r bringing it in on the fish but prob dont no its there
maybe they should treat the fish with a coarse of antibiotics or this stuff (product to be on the market soon) once the fish come out of quarintine
would prob make things better
just my opinion
cheers wayne

[Trebs]

I'm completely confused now. Your saying there was no ammonia to start, then after w/c's the ammonia went down quite quickly?