new RAMS!! 56k warning!!!

[boost.puppy]

Hi guys, I thought I'd share my new pride & joy.. my new German Blue ram pair... the male doesn't begin to show his true colours in these pics, he is truly stunning!!! out of about 30 fish, he stood out in the tank.. straight away I was like HIM!!! HIM!! I WANT HIM!!!

the female has a nice fat belly too!
please excuse the tank looking bad (long story but basically my tank split today & I had to do a mad rush around to buy a new tank while all my fish sat in buckets) heres half the finished product!!! (missing about 70% of my plants!!!)

[*Chris*]

sorry to be the bearer of bad news mate but i suggest you take them back and swap them
they look a bit deformed

[Rod]

I agree with Chris....very inbred fish
Male is deformed at base of tail

Have a look at this post for what German Rams should look like

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14260

[Th0mas]

I agree on the deformations as well - suggest you take them back and swap them with something else (dry goods if you don't have any fish in mind) as it's likely the whole batch in the LFS are from the same source (which are genetically bad).

Take a look at this thread on how the blue ram suppose to look like:

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14260&start=20&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Additionally - some of the plants you got in the tank are not aquatic plants. They may not live long when totally submerged.

PS: Imported German rams don't usually have such obvious deformations. I believe these are either cheap Asian imports or locally bred (within it's own bloodline for several generations).

[boost.puppy]

guys, you have freaked me out! I got these from an extremely reliable local fish shop, the best in Sydney as a matter of fact!

it's also a 1.5 hour drive to take them back!!!!

these are the best looking rams I could find (trust me I looked everywhere) and I was told they were locally bred & born.

[boost.puppy]

and if your reffering to the bella palms.. I know I discovered it AFTER I bought them, rookie mistake, but I have had them several months & they are doing ok (every week I take them out of the water for a while)
Is the female ok? because I have been watching them all morning after I read these posts, I see what you mean with the male, but the female looks good & healthy? shes got a really pink belly and she's nice & round.. I thought thats a sign of a good ram!
If I split them & make sure they don't pair up will it be something that can be bred out of them? I really wanted to breed rams, I have a second tank set-up for when the times right.. But If they are going to be "deformed" (as you put it) I don't want to be responsible for an inferior or traumatised fish.

[Th0mas]

Don't want to be nasty but I wouldn't recommend breeding with any fish knowing the deformations they have are genetic (as similar deformations at different degree amongst the siblings).

Any responsible breeder will cull these defected fish and stop breeding with the bloodline (and let the adult fish live out it's natural life). However the extend of the deformations mean it's possible their parents are likely to have certain degree of visible deformations which leads to conclude whoever is breeding with them are irresponsible.

As for a LFS - if they're as good as you said - they shall warrant your claim and refund your fish as store credit. After they acknowledge and confirmed they got a batch of deformed fish (if they weren't aware already) - they will destroy them and stopped sourcing fish from this breeder. If they do aware of such deformations in their stock and still sells them to the public - then I really doubt the reputation of this LFS.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[boost.puppy]

ok well the shop is closed on Sundays as far as I know, thankyou for pointing it out, I'll probably take them back next weekend, I'm very dissapointed, we get all our marine fish & coral from them, so selling me these fish (which I should have checked properly) wasn't very professional on their behalf. Thanks for your input.

[Rod]

Unfortunately just about every shop has deformed or poor quality stock
You were ecstatic with your purchase until advised other wise.....lots of people can't tell the difference.....so there is every chance poor quality fish will get sold so it is a lot easier for shops to ignore any dud product than it is to be responsible.
It does take a fair bit of commitment to cull dud fish.
It would be Great if wholesalers culled poor quality....but I can't see it happening

On the same token.....often Top quality fish are often sold cheaply....I bought the best Rams(female in photo above) I've ever owed for $10 each....cheap!!

In the end....it's buyer beware

Don't be too embarrassed....I love Pelvicachromis taeniatus.....I've bought pairs with drooping pectoral fins but only noticed when I got them settled

[Robdog]

St George is good for just about anything other than Sth Americans, but I would have thought that at least one person there would know the difference between a deformed fish and a normal one.

I'd probably tackle this carefully. Give them a call during the week if it's not possible to get there before the w/e. Don't say "Hi you sold me a deformed fish, an internet forum told me so!" Shops hate this and would probably say internet forums don't know jack.
If that male ram was the best you could find in the tank then I'd really hate to see the rest of them and therefore wouldn't be wanting a trade of fish.

As it stands, the photos of Rod's rams in his thread IMO are the best looking rams in the country and definitely the benchmark for breeding stock.

[discuslover]

Boost,
There is another way of looking at this situation, choose not to breed them and just keep them in a community tank. I personally like the pair even with the deformaties. I have found that to get the best specimans deal direct with breeders and i am sure you would find one on this forum

[Th0mas]

I still think it's worth to socialise (talk) with the LFS in regard to their deformed stock - hopefully they'll stop selling them to avoid a repeat of your situation with other unaware buyers.

Whether it's worth to make the trip and return/swap, it's up to yourself to make the judgement.

As per discuslover recommended - you will find breeders on this board. If you're willing to wait - my F1 German blue ram should be big enough around May (their parent's quality is far superior compared to the stock where you got the rams from).

[boost.puppy]

hey thanks guys, I actually found a beautiful female today & got her, she's wild & imported, I have put some new pics up of her now :)

as for the tact in getting them returned, I will say look I'm sorry but when I got them home I realised they have some flaws, as I specified to the guy who sold them to me, I would like to breed them eventually, so can you please exchange them! (they currently still aren't eating yet anyway) so hopefully they make the weekend.

I actually have them now in my hospital tank with a ghost knife & angelfish, they seem to be holding their own, But I'll be heartbroken if they died from the deformity or them not eating so it's best I take them back!!!

I must admit, at first this morning when I read the replies, I got offended, but then I realised you guys are trying to help me out, so I appreciate it!!!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t176/kurramiah/female5.jpg
again I couldn't get half her colours in the pic, she actually has a pink belly, but here it's a little purple.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t176/kurramiah/female4.jpg



http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t176/kurramiah/newfemale.jpg

what do we think of her???

[Rod]

I must admit, at first this morning when I read the replies, I got offended, but then I realised you guys are trying to help me out, so I appreciate it!!!

Well said!....imagine if you did breed them...raise the fry and 90% were so deformed that you couldn't give them away. It is quite difficult to raise Rams....so if you do it they might as well be quality fish!

Lots of people on forums will tell you nice things....it is a lot better to state the facts

I believe it is critical to anyone intending to breed fish to have the best parent stock possible.....It amazes me how Asian breeders keep producing crap Rams and even more amazing that wholesalers continue to import them.....wouldn't be too hard to invest in some quality German breeding stock....cost the same to raise the babies!

[*Chris*]

this is a pic of my male german ram gaurding fry picture made him a bit washe dout but when he is in full blume he is absolutely awesome

[*Chris*]

these are the pair in which the male above has come from

[Th0mas]

Nice pair of ram you got Chris.

[Rod]

Very nice Rams Chris.....

I suggest they would show a lot stronger colour on a dark substrate.....but that may be just my personal preference talking? :wink:

Did you or are you still raising the fry ?

[boost.puppy]

well heres a quick update,
I was sweet as pie explaining the situation, yeah the lady abused me and accused the problems these fish have as being poor water parameters on my part, I told her I'm happy to supply my water parameters & what method I used when accumulizing the fish.. but long story short, she started screaming yelling & swearing & they won't take the fish back... big mistake we have 2 marine & two tropical fish tanks, we have spent a $h*t load of money there & this is what I get in return!?!

I'm never going there again.. and I cancelled my orders for peppermint shrimp, so she just lost an order of over $100.00 for a lousy $40.00 exchange... stupid woman.

[boost.puppy]

oh and your fish are lovely, if you get any Juvi's & willing to ship i'll take some off your hands :)

and no one commented on my new girl?? she's got even more colour now she's been in a few days, she look stunning & is twice the size of the other two!!!

[Robdog]

To be honest boost.puppy, I was going to wait for someone else to comment but nobody has so here goes.

The caudal peduncle looks too elongated and I'm not sure why she has nearly 3 black blotches on her flanks. Maybe I'm just seeing triple.
Decent looking fish and probably a good practice breeder but not a top quality ram.

Just my opinion mate. Feel free to tell me to go jam it :wink: :wink:

BTW if that is how the FS reacted then they're not worth the hour and a half trip for next time I guess

[Th0mas]

Despite it's not perfect, but if it's a wild caught fish - it'll never be perfect.

Other than what you've picked up, this is still a much better specimen than the one boost had (from that other LFS whom refused to acknowledge of selling deformed fish). Maybe someone in Sydney should pop over on the weekend and point this out to them at their busiest hour. That should bring the issue to their attention (as well as some customers').

I know one of the manager in that LFS can be a pain to deal with, while another is rather polite and understanding. So it really depends on who you had to deal with at the time.

[fishgeek]

what happened to the original pictures?
i never got to see the fish the discussion is about


andrew

[boost.puppy]

I deleted them cuz I got embarrassed,

so my new girl isn't any good??? (I'm begginning to feel I should give up)

she's got heaps more colour on her now! and she's finally eating so I'm pretty happy with her...

I'm going to keep the first two because they have heaps of charatcter & I'm beginning to feel I'm way to amature to take fish keeping seriously, cuz I keep making mistakes & it's not cheap!

[boost.puppy]

I deleted them cuz I got embarrassed,

so my new girl isn't any good??? (I'm begginning to feel I should give up)

she's got heaps more colour on her now! and she's finally eating so I'm pretty happy with her...

I'm going to keep the first two because they have heaps of charatcter & I'm beginning to feel I'm way to amature to take fish keeping seriously, cuz I keep making mistakes & it's not cheap!

[fishgeek]

it's a hobby for relaxation and enjoyment

just remember to take any fry that do come through back to the said shop for store credit :wink:

if you feel like putting the photo's back in it helps the forum serve it's purpose of allowing everyone to read and learn


andrew

[*Chris*]

the pair might be up for sale very soon
the fry i havent really tried at all .... and the pair had just bred so there colors are not to brigth atm
so give me a week or so and they will be on eggs again i reckon
so i might get my behind into gear and save some of the fry

[Rod]

I deleted them cuz I got embarrassed,

so my new girl isn't any good??? (I'm begginning to feel I should give up)

she's got heaps more colour on her now! and she's finally eating so I'm pretty happy with her...

I'm going to keep the first two because they have heaps of charatcter & I'm beginning to feel I'm way to amature to take fish keeping seriously, cuz I keep making mistakes & it's not cheap!

Don't let it get to you.....Not everyone can own a pedigree dog capable of winning a show....same with fish.....Lots of people have mongrel dogs they love!!....same with fish :wink:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

[Robdog]

I agree. No need to be embarrassed. I'd say for the majority of people here, their first few fish were less than perfect. Not until you see other peoples fish do you really "get your eye in" and become able to distinguish between the crap and the pearlers.
For example the picture below is of the second cacatuoides I ever owned and he was a shocker but he was the only one around that I could find. I used to call him "Kinky" He produced offspring that were great to cycle new tanks though. :wink:

And for the record, none of his offspring ever made it out of my living room

[boost.puppy]

yeah I guess, It's just really off putting the amount of mistakes I've made, I bought an angelfish who eats all my plants & a albino Ghostknife (purely because it's rare) and it ate all my small fish...

I put a powerhead in my tank which was spare from one of my marine tanks because I wanted to get a better flow... it broke & killed my mollie.

rams were really what I wanted to have the most & I spent 3 months "perfecting" my tank ready for them & now this has happened... so now I have two tanks one for my reject fish and one display tank...

[boost.puppy]

and now my betta just died.. of old age... it's just not my week!

[Robdog]

Chin up mate. Fishrock (http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15507) to the rescue! :wink:

[boost.puppy]

haha! funny you should say that.. I actually went to them on the weekend.. I got to see the mum & the dad... VERY nice fish... so I'll be getting a male from them shortly (the guys said to wait a month or so)
they actually had some really nice stock there! I was in there for about half an hour.. and chatting away to all the guys there.. I'd definately reccomend them!

[boost.puppy]

I went to go get my new male last night.. he's a cutie! he's not very old at all ( half the size of my female) but he's already showing signs of character...

when he starts to get some colour I'll post pics he's a pale blue/grey at the moment.. but his front dorsals quite large & he has a nice thick tail..

the guy from Fish rock spend about 15min finding me the best one in the tank.. they were so helpful!

[boost.puppy]

here's an update.. I got a nice little male from Fishrock last week, he's still colouring up but if he looks anything like his dad he'll be a stunner!

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg292/_boost_puppy_/newboy.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg292/_boost_puppy_/myboy.jpg

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg292/_boost_puppy_/20080219_IMG_0128.jpg

this is the girl now.. I have had her a few weeks & she's coloured up nicely.

[boost.puppy]

the deformed male died today too.. did water test everything was fine.. quite strange.. but it's better that he died young because they did have major problems.. probably internal issues too if he was that inbred.

I feel sorry for the female.. she's swimming around looking for her mate...