Wild Caught ethics

[GreenDiscus]

Hi Forum.

I have been browsing the web site (again) and I have been in awe of some of the Wild Caught Disus photos in that section. However, this question is not in there because the "Wildies" may be biased.... haha

Does the Forum think it is ethical to strongly encourage Wild Caught Discus, that will result in poor local people searching every waterway in the Amazon, to supply the market ??

The clear comparison is: Would Austrlaians like to see the Barrier Reef stripped of Marine Fish to supply the USA Market ??

There are probably Discus Farms in the Amazon that breed and sell Wild "Caught" Discus, but many thousands will be removed from the Waterways !!

[Ben]

Very good point. Keeping anything from the wild is unethical IMO... but i am a hipocrit as i love my marine tank with wild caught fish....and my wild caught green discus look awesome in my 8 foot tank...

[ILLUSN]

If enough experienced people get into wilds we'll soon have F1's, 2's, 3's.......... that are just as good if not better then the majority of wild stock thats currently available.

Responisble husbandry and breeding on the part of true hobiest such as a few crazy people here will ensure the conservation of the species and of the strains for future generations.

As habitat destruction is a constant threat to native habitat of these magnificent fish (much more then controled harvesting in stirct seasons) sooner or later it will come down to people like us to ensure that the species survive.

much like my captive population of E.portoalegrensis and E.opacus sword plants, whose native populations have been all but obliterated by habitiat destruction.

In response to your question would i like to see the great barrier reef stripped, NO, because there are safeguards here to prevent its destruction (though untill indonesia come on bord and protect their reefs theres only so much we can do).

the amazon on the other hand is under a far greater threat and i for one would like to see these fish preserved rather then lost to extinction, even if its only in home aquariums across the world.

i'll get off my box now, sorry for the rant.

[taksan]

Rubbish the scumbags in the Amazon would just be boiling them up to make soup otherwise. The whole region is full of the lowest common denominator in humankind and the sooner Discus are removed from any contact with them the better.

[GreenDiscus]

Illusn - I think your ranting box is placed at about the same level as mine !!

I can see the point about it being down to a few lucky fanciers to be able to preserve these wonderful fish, and improve on them AGAIN, but the very demand for being one of the fanciers may be a major part of the problem !!

I am not guilt free myself I may add, since I used to have a fine pair of spawning (only) Heckles when all you could buy were Browns. But whether I could justify to myself to obtain Wild Discus out of an endangered Amazon water course is anothe rmatter.

Perhaps someone without the guilt complex can sell me some pure cross F1's to help preserve the species .....haha !!

[samir]

There are probably Discus Farms in the Amazon that breed and sell Wild "Caught" Discus,

There are people who do that, (but before they are allowed to breed wild strains right next to a place where they can catch them for a hundredth of the cost and effort) they must apply for, and be accepted as the sole idiot of a suitable village.

[rwel4809]

Rubbish the scumbags in the Amazon would just be boiling them up to make soup otherwise. The whole region is full of the lowest common denominator in humankind and the sooner Discus are removed from any contact with them the better.

Interesting view you have of indigenous people Taksan :?

I do hope you're joking ... Man and fish must have lived together in equilibrium in the Amazon for many centuries, if not millenia, before we worked out how to keep Discus in tanks, pollute their waters, and bulldoze their ecosystem.. Makes me wonder who the 'scumbags' really are :shock:

[Barry N]

The Amazon is being obliterated through farming and forestry at an alarming rate...within a generation or two there won't be much left. When their natural habitat is stuffed, what are the discus going to do...
Responsible keeping and breeding of wilds is preservation of the species in itself. I only used to like the hybrids and all the 'pretty' colours, but since being on this forum I have a new found appreciation for wilds. I know what my next purchase (when I either have a spare tank, or more likely buy another :lol: ) of dicsus will be - Wilds.

[sharkies]

[Would Austrlaians like to see the Barrier Reef stripped of Marine Fish to supply the USA Market ?? ]

Having worked in the marine fish collecting business for a 9 mth period I can tell you it is the same as all things , there are good collectors that care about the enviroment and the future of the reef and its inhabitants and there are cowboys that don't give a @#^* about anything but the dollar, this is the world we live in and I am sure that it is the same with discus collectors. Whilst working in this trade I was told a story of a collector that arrived at an outer reef where a certain fish ( flame hawk )could be obtained at certian times of the year this fish lives in the finger corals and can be quite tricky to catch. As this collector decended to start his collection he was greeted by the site of many broken coral finger that had been broken as to provide easier access to this certain type of fish. Did the person that did this not realise that they where destroying the habitat of this fish and had probably driven it out of the area for years to come or was it that the lure of a good payday out weighed any rational thoughts. There are many responsible collectors out there but it always seems to be the dickheads the tarnish the reputation of the good.

well thats my little rant for today, but without these wild caught discus none of us would be keeping any of these magnificent fish wilds or tank bred.[/quote]

[taksan]

Rubbish the scumbags in the Amazon would just be boiling them up to make soup otherwise. The whole region is full of the lowest common denominator in humankind and the sooner Discus are removed from any contact with them the better.

Interesting view you have of indigenous people Taksan :?

I do hope you're joking ... Man and fish must have lived together in equilibrium in the Amazon for many centuries, if not millenia, before we worked out how to keep Discus in tanks, pollute their waters, and bulldoze their ecosystem.. Makes me wonder who the 'scumbags' really are :shock:

Been there recently? ..... I have and I stand by my comments.

[rwel4809]

Rubbish the scumbags in the Amazon would just be boiling them up to make soup otherwise. The whole region is full of the lowest common denominator in humankind and the sooner Discus are removed from any contact with them the better.

Interesting view you have of indigenous people Taksan :?

I do hope you're joking ... Man and fish must have lived together in equilibrium in the Amazon for many centuries, if not millenia, before we worked out how to keep Discus in tanks, pollute their waters, and bulldoze their ecosystem.. Makes me wonder who the 'scumbags' really are :shock:

Been there recently? ..... I have and I stand by my comments.

I'll let you know - I plan to go at the end of the year... :)

[Robdog]

The clear comparison is: Would Austrlaians like to see the Barrier Reef stripped of Marine Fish to supply the USA Market ??


Ummmm... hate to tell you but....

[Fishontherun]

taksan may I ask what did u see at the amazon villages?
You prefer to strip off those peole's meal in exchange for your hobby?

[samir]

taksan may I ask what did u see at the amazon villages?
You prefer to strip off those peole's meal in exchange for your hobby?

its probably the other way around, he providing for them by buying fish. plus they dont eat tigrinus.

[taksan]

taksan may I ask what did u see at the amazon villages?
You prefer to strip off those peole's meal in exchange for your hobby?

its probably the other way around, he providing for them by buying fish. plus they dont eat tigrinus.

They do eat them Samir ..... they do.
At the fish market I saw probably $250,000 worth of tigs and a couple of million dollars worth of rays for sale (dead as food) for something like $10.
Smart people the locals .... like a block of wood.

[ILLUSN]

At the fish market I saw probably $250,000 worth of tigs and a couple of million dollars worth of rays for sale (dead as food) for something like $10.

what a ******* waste!

especially given the generation time of those fish!!!!!!!

what size were they?

[dntx5b9]

Wow! Those are some strong and arrogant comments. May be you will understand better if you don't have anything to eat and have resort to fishing fish from the river to feed yourself or sell the fish you caught from the river to feed your family. May be you can enlighten us some more based on what you saw and help us see your viewpoint. People eat fish, and discus are fish. Nothing wrong with eating discus.

[gypsy3]

g'day all....i don't really buy into these sort of arguments, but i will say one thing...not all parts of the world are as fortunate as ourselves.If this what the local people have to do to sustain themselves, who are we to question or denigrate them.Perhaps if THEY got the couple of million, things would be better all round.I think , despite having a great love for discus, that people will always be more important than fish. I wonder how much per fish the locals get when we pay hundreds for their fish. Quit frankly, i find some of the comments here to be quite offensive - let's never forget how fortunate we are compared to some.

[taksan]

Wow! Those are some strong and arrogant comments. May be you will understand better if you don't have anything to eat and have resort to fishing fish from the river to feed yourself or sell the fish you caught from the river to feed your family. May be you can enlighten us some more based on what you saw and help us see your viewpoint. People eat fish, and discus are fish. Nothing wrong with eating discus.

Maybe you would understand better if you went there and discovered that 98% of the areas population are not Indians in villages but gold miners and normal people working in the cattle, rubber and trade industries who no more need to resort to subsistence fishing then we do. Maybe if you saw the hundreds of carcasses of dead rays left rotting beside the water that have been speared and left on the riverbank to die because ignorant locals think they might step on one. Maybe if you saw the rotting heads of Tapirs that have been slaughtered after wandering onto plantations.
Maybe if you were offered a fresh Jaguar skin and when you refused were offered a starving cub that was taken when its mother was slaughtered for that skin. Maybe if you were offered baby monkeys, sloths, caiman as pets or food all taken illegally by a local police officer. Maybe if you saw the raw sewerage being pumped into the the river ....the money being made by the forest rapists ... maybe ...maybe I could go on and on.

Maybe if you knew anything about the reality of the situation instead of your national geographic postcard view you might think differently about your precious Amazonians.

[samir]

They do eat them Samir ..... they do.


what a bunch of morons.

[samir]

ah and I wouldn't mind the jaguar cub if I had the space :twisted:

[Squid]

I've eaten a few. A bit 'fishie' but not too bad. No wonder the locals consider them a delicacy. $50 a fillet in Australia!!

If I were you guys - I would be more worried about their habitat destruction then their numbers in the wild. Like Taksan, I keep huge numbers of wild discus. I am also a degree qualified ecologist/zoolologist and specialise in aquatic animals "stuff". I'm willing to take anyone on in this subject of fish collecting. The Zon is a huge joint. Fish collecting is a way of life in the Amazonia area. No fish - no income. Bit like the mining boom in Aus right now. Should we stop digging holes - oh no, we couldn't do that. Same for those guys in the Zon. We just gotta get smart and preserve whats left. That wont happen either.

Developed countries need to stop buying the timber stuff from down in the Zon. Wont happen I reckon, so lets preserve the species elsewhere.

I think a lot of people have entered posts on this thread without ever having ever been to a third world country. Go over and see what its like to starve. If your back yard had the only food fish in the area, you would catch and sell them to feed your kids.

Enough of me on my high horse. Go'in down to my shed to feed my wilds

Squid

[gypsy3]

i couldn't agree more with squid's comments - just find that the description attached to the locals was pretty offensive.Sure, there are always going to be some lowlifes who mistreat and abuse animals, but you don't generalise to the extent that was stated here...and people have got to eat - i guess circumstances dictate what they have to do to survive.

[GreenDiscus]

Great Feedback thankyou folks...

Clearly a pretty imotive subject with a wide divergence of views !!

My initial view that it may be wrong to purchase Wild Caught Discus in order to preserve them in large numbers in their natural habitat is clearly not the full picture since:

1) The habitat is fast disappearing which is the biggest problem anyway.
2) The Discus will be caught for food if not caught for a greater income.

So, the concensus seems to be that it is best to pay the locals (not just all the profiteering middlemen) a fair price to feed their families rather than eat them, and so they will benefit, and so do all Discus Fanciers who also preserve the species...

Just need to know where to get some from in Brisbane now then since I like to look into the tank for an hour before picking out the ones I want !!!

[gypsy3]

good luck with that mate...they all seem to go from the wholesaler like wildfire.Bayfish at hervey bay are pretty reliable tho - all the wilds i've gotten from them have acclimatised really well and the last lot of greens they just sold were really, really nice fish. .Your lfs should be able to put in an order for you.