Planning a substrate change

[DiscusEden]

OK, so I know the current substrate went anaerobic a few months ago & I was told to change it, but on the up side, I've ordered the new stuff 7 will be doing it soon.

Equipment:
540L tank - changing substrate in
2x 100L water changing barrels, with heaters & air pumps.
80L Orca tank - not cycled
75L tank with air pump & sponge filter - not cycled
12"x18" tank, heater (no air pump)

water pump, used for water changes
syphon

Fish:
7x M-ML discus
pair of bolivians (want to keep them out, haven't been able to catch em)
x25ish - I lost count - guppies
21 cardinals
royal whiptail catfish (large)
5 peppermint BN (large)
freshwater garfish (2")

Plants:
stack of blyxa japonica
4x red lotus
pogostemnon (?sp)
anubias nana
anubias barteri
I'll probably replace the rest, as there is algae & trim the anubias

Oh, and a 4 1/2 ft log that's not coming out & is covered in BBA. (There are struts along the top of the tank, making it a min 3 person job for 1 person.)

Here's the question - how best to go about this, causing the least trauma to all involved?

Any advice greatfully accepted. Oh, and can I chuck the old Flora Base & pool sand on the garden? TIA,

DiscusEden :wink:

[ILLUSN]

the old florabase/ pool sand will go great in the garden!

the best way is to get yourself some 25mm tubing frome clark rubber (not bunnings its not food grade) and siphone out the old stuff.

it will proably take several goes.

[DiscusEden]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Really? That easy? 'Cos I've been picturing this whole putting everything in the barrels & tanks drama, maybe worming at the same time, running the filter on a different tank & scrubbing down the tank, thing.

That sounds too easy! Great! I can start it tomorrow & have a bare bottomed tank until the ecocomplete arrives!

Which of course leads to - if the fish stay in there, do I drain the ecocomplete, then tip it in & try to miss the fish? Or tip it in liquid & all?

Thanks again!

[SusieQ]

Hi... I just recently changed an area of my substrate (about 1/2 the 120 gallon tank) to ecocomplete.. Luckily didn't have to change out the pool filter sand just moved it over to the other side of the tank and then after planting covered the ecocomplete with a layer of the sand.. Found the easiest way to add the drained ecocomplete was by using a plastic funnel (like they use for car radiators) with some 1 inch hose attached. Was real easy to control where the ecocomplete ended up and didn't bother the discus at all.. I didn't rinse the ecocomplete just drained off some of the liquid. Just had a very mini spike after planting and playing with the substrate. Just took an extra water change and a few days to get back to normal... HTH Sue

[SusieQ]

Hi... I just recently changed an area of my substrate (about 1/2 the 120 gallon tank) to ecocomplete.. Luckily didn't have to change out the pool filter sand just moved it over to the other side of the tank and then after planting covered the ecocomplete with a layer of the sand.. Found the easiest way to add the drained ecocomplete was by using a plastic funnel (like they use for car radiators) with some 1 inch hose attached. Was real easy to control where the ecocomplete ended up and didn't bother the discus at all.. I didn't rinse the ecocomplete just drained off some of the liquid. Just had a very mini spike after planting and playing with the substrate. Just took an extra water change and a few days to get back to normal... HTH Sue

[DiscusEden]

Thanks Sue, it really does!

I'm starting to get enthusiastic about this - I can't wait for it to arrive now! Or do the w/c & start siphoning tomorrow - thanks for the help guys!

[fish_r]

am i reading this right ? are u going to leave the fish in there when ur going to siphon the old stuff out ?
i wouldn't advise doing that. to do it properly i would be putting the fish in the other tanks/barrels that u have with water from ur tank and put ur current cannister filter "running" in one of the barrels u have "just turn down the flow a bit to make sure ur bio load doesnt die. then i would be taking all of ur plants out next and putting them in buckets of water from the tank too. then get ur wood out and scrub all the bba off. then siphon all of the old gravel/sand out and give the tank a wipe down just with plain old water and ur hands or some chemical free paper towel.

the problem i can see if ur going to do the change with ur fish in the tank is that u say ur sand has gone anaerobic if u disturb the anaerobic pockets u are setting ur self up for disaster. + i dont like the idea of refilling 5-7 bags of eco complete back into ur tank with the fish in there as it will be cloudy for a while too and dont think it would be very good for ur fish to go through this.

it wont take much extra time to do things properly and u will put less stress on ur fish and will have a better outcome for ur tank.

[DiscusEden]

That's what I was worried about fish_r - the current substrate is already sending up bubbles when disturbed & I had a discus die last night that looked perfectly healthy the day before - I've had her since I set up the tank, so I wondered if it was the substrate. Either that or I gave her the evil eye, 'cos I talked about getting rid of her. Hmmm.

Anyway, I'm thinking sooner rather than later - but I can't get the wood out, 'cos it took 4 of us to get it in there between the struts & I'll be doing it by myself. Scrub it with what by the way?

I might hold off doing anything other than the normal w/c's until the substrate arrives.

Could I worm them when they're out so I don't knock off the filter?

Which barrels/tanks would you put what into?

Thanks again,
DE

[ILLUSN]

Sorry DE, didn't relise the substrate was that bad!

if you can get down to a home brew shop and grab yourself a food grade barrell, you dont need a massive one 80-100L will do.

if the budget will strech get 2 so you can save the old tank water.

siphon your tank water into that and hook up your filter.

drain the tank, remove the substrate, scrub the tank with a sponge, maybe some dilute bleach (5ml:10L water bucket) rinse and then lay your new substrate in.

carefully add back the old water 9you'd want about 50% full of old water then top up with fresh aged water, just like a good water change ;)

[fish_r]

if u let me know when ur going to do it i will come up and give u a hand if u want, i'm sure between the 2 of us we can get the wood out :wink: i'm pretty strong and have got large bits of wood between small struts b4.
i have seen the wood and think i can handle it :wink:
i just usually use a strong scrubbing brush and lots of elbow grease to get bba off.
i would be putting all the discus in the other tanks u have with airstones and with water from the tank and all the other fish in a plastic tub with airstones. i have a 100ltr square tub u can use if u want. then most of the other water in one of the 100ltr aging barrels u have, leaving 1 x 100ltr aging barrel with fresh water in it to top things up after the change.

i am a firm believer that if ur going to do a job, do it properly the first time.

the offer is there, just let me know.

[fish_r]

p.s. the way i would do the change is to get all the clean water out u can without disturbing the substrate. then take all the plants out and put in a bucket, then siphon all the sand out, then take the wood out. and then clean the tank with just fresh water and elbow grease then start filling the new substrate.

[DiscusEden]

Thanks again guys!

Fish_r, you're a lifesaver - and I just may take you up on that - if you think you can handle the 40kg puppy helping. I'll post again when the substrate arrives & maybe give you a call. Thankyou!

[DiscusEden]

Yay! It's here!

I'm getting a list of available plants tomorrow from the LFS, will get some new ones & just you wait, little fishies, paradise awaits! (Or chaos, we'll have to see how it goes.)

Thanks again for your halp guys - especially fish_r - get ready to roll up those sleeves - puppy's already been chewing on the boxes the substrate came in & the courier was too scared to come in the gate. I know how he feels some days.

Oooh - and I saw some albino kribs yesterday - they'd look good against the black substrate, don't you think? Or should I hold out for some apistos.....

You know, I saw Dr Harry on the TV a few weeks ago, saying that keeping fish as a pet costs $100 to set up & $20 a year to maintain. Amatuer.

[Robdog]

Sounds like you're getting the buzz again DE! Hope it all goes smooth for you

[fish_r]

looking forward to it DE, i'll bring my tazer for Sampson too lol :lol:
"only joking" hehe...

[DiscusEden]

Not funny. No WAY am I explaining that to the breeder. "Oh, I know his coat was wavy last time you saw it, but he got a fright..."

Thanks Robdog for the wellwishes. Yes, I can leave it alone for awhile, it seems like I'm happy with it as is, but then I wander in to pick up some fish food & just see one thing.... Have you guys noticed how pretty those marines are?

[ILLUSN]

Have you guys noticed how pretty those marines are?

not you too, discus are much prettier :)

[DiscusEden]

OK, leaving aside winding up the marine-a-phobes for a minute...

When I put the new eco-complete in, do I drain the black water first? The tank is currently running on 1 eheim filter, which I can keep running in the w/c barrel, but the overhead aqua-one filter is too heavy to shift & will have to be turned off for the duration, so do I treat it like a new cycling tank & leave the blackwater with the eco-complete in, or drain it?

When I go to clean the plants after chopping off the visibly affected leaves (there's currently a BBA issue), is it possible to wash them in something? If so, what? I've read about bleach solutions, but I'm not sure what brand or strength. I'll be wanting to do the same to the new ones I've ordered too.

Thanks again!

[DiscusEden]

Please?

Drain the eco-complete or not?

[fish_r]

what i think, i'm not 100% sure though is we get everything out, give the tank a good clean and then pour all the substrate in "including the black water" put the wood back in and fill it up a little with fresh water direct from the tap approx 80-100ltrs and see what it looks like conditioning it with prime, if it's not too murky i think leaving the black water in would be good too do cause if it's a black water extract it will probably settle ur fish when they eventually go back in. if it's looking ok. time to put all the plants back in and start the cannister running in the tank again. if u dont like the black water u will be able to do water changes over a few days to get rid of the tea look, but i honestly think it will be a good thing for the time being.
if u havn't cleaned the cannister since the last time i cleaned it for u there should be plenty of bacteria in there so the time ur trickle system is off i dont really think it will have a big impact on ur tank cycle wise. but it will pay to keep an eye on ur ammonia levels for a few days to make sure u dont have any spikes. if anything u might go through a mini cycle but nothing to be too concerned about imo.
if it was me i wouldn't be too concerned with bleaching the plants, but thats up too u.

if we can take the trickle system of the top of the tank it will also make it a lot easier to get the wood out, if not i cant promise i "can" get the wood out.

[DiscusEden]

See, this is why I leave the thinking to you. That & I'm so busted. No, I haven't cleaned it. I thought about it. Then I thought I could buy a second Eheim & I'd only have to think about it half as often.

I don't know how we're going to go about getting the top filter off, 'cos it doesn't drain when it's turned off & it's awful heavy with the water in. I think it might break if we try to lift it. But we could slide that half over to the edge maybe? We can try to work it out on Sunday.

Thanks for the answer - I'm getting a little preoccupied with thinking this through, and a little anxious - I very much appreciate your help!

[fish_r]

hmmm it's a long time between filter cleans then lol :lol: i personally like to have a cannister at each end of the tank on large tanks, not only for good filtration but the good thing about running 2 cannisters is u can clean one and u still have the other with a good lot of bacteria in it while the other gets going properly again. then clean the other a cpl of weeks later. + u would have the added bonus of being able to get rid of the noisy trickle system.
i really think u need to clean ur filter a bit more often than u do though u naughty girl :shock: :lol:

[DiscusEden]

And you're planning to do what to me?

I know you're right (hanging head in shame), but one thing at a time. Substrate first. Then you can come & help set up the new filter. Right?

[fish_r]

And you're planning to do what to me? http://emcsmileys.com/s/bondage1.gif :twisted: :twisted: :lol:

lol :lol: one thing at a time :wink: after u have ur second filter and got rid of the trickle filter "which is depleting a lot of ur Co2
another thing i would recommend getting is an external Co2 reactor for ur Co2 setup and a good eheim pump to run it :wink:
i thoroughly recommend the Dupla external reactor approx $200 and a Eheim Universal Pump 1250 to run it. approx $160. will talk to u about this when i get there though.

[riverlanddiscus]

Hey fishr, When are you coming to Renmark to help me put in new substrate and set up co2 system??

:)

[fish_r]

haha, might be up there in the near future as my work has a branch up there and i'm supposed to be going up for a look soon :P

[DiscusEden]

Ha!

He comes with a personal recommendation. Does all the planning, thinking, directing & 95% of the work, then gives you all the credit & says he helped. Oh, and brings his own equipment as well. Good luck getting him to help out!

[riverlanddiscus]

If you are ever around, I can provide dinner and a look at my amateur single fish aquarium.

[fish_r]

i think ur selling urself a bit short DE lol, i did less than 95% of the work :) hows it all going btw ? where's the pics ?

will keep that in mind Riverland http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/KharmaKazi/thumb.gif

[DiscusEden]

Pics are in the photo section, and I think I've made my point.

Hehehe