Filters a MUST for raising discus?

[albatrozz]

Hi guys,

I'm kinda new to raising discus, i have 11 discus in my 45gal tank and have had them for about 8 months, for sum reason they havent grown in this tank but instead SHRUNK! I think its coz that its planted so i got a new tank and ive moved half the discus there, but my question is are filters a MUST for keeping the discus? Filters are really expensive here in Australia so im trying to save smoe money since ive spent thousands on the fish/tank/resources/food.

Please help me and answer ASAP

[Matt15]

Are you serious?

Filters in my opinion are a MUST. You can't have biological filtration without a cycled filter. Canister filters are certainly the best to use and are very inexpensive these days.

Have alook at a page from one of this sites sponsors
http://www.aquariumproducts.com.au/external_canister_filters.php
Aqua Nova NCF-600 is only $69.00. Thats very cheap but I personally wouldn't recommend it for long term use (more than 1yr). But you get what you pay for. It will certainly do a good job, but the filter rings will ware in time (1year).

I would also say that having 11 discus in a 45gal tank is alittle over crowded so its good that you have split them up.

[albatrozz]

oh alright, but filters here in sydney fish shops/pet shops go in the hundreds usually $200+. I'll try look around for a cheap filter online but does anyone know how and why my discus has shrunk? I mean the juvies i bought at 5-6cm's havent shrunk but they literally havent grown, and the 2 "CD" sized leopard/melon have shrunk maybe 1 or 2 cm's in size. Is there something wrong with my tank? or my food?

[djceri_g]

this means they have been stunted. With bad water quality and food they wont grow. have you noticed their eyes looks big compared to their body?

have you got a pic or cant you afford a camera? (only joking!) sory!

also, what are you feeding these fish?

[ILLUSN]

GET A FILTER!

even better, spend up big and get a GOOD filter, you'll need it.

if your trying to grow out discus in an unfiltered tank you'll need 2-4x daily water changes of 90-95% or else you'll have problems like your describing (stunting and even shrinking due to poor water quality). with good filtration you can get away with daily changes of 10-30% (this is with HEAVY overfeeding for MAX growth)

planted tanks arent the best for growing out discus, what you want is a bare bottom tank so as you can feed them 4-6x a day and clean up all the uneaten food 10-20min after feeding.

once they reach about 5-6 inches move them to the planted tank for display and feed only ONCE a day, any eacess food will be hard to remove and will ruin your water quality.

in your 45 gal planted you want a stocking density of 4 adult fish MAX! (though 1 mated pair only would be MUCH easier to maintain).

[the german]

you can do without filter when you change at least 95% water every day

[albatrozz]

i will get u guys some pics of my discus as soon as possible. my camera battery is getting chared as we speak, should get it to u guys soon so u guys can judge on whether they r stunted or not, thx

[taksan]

Rytis? is that you????

:laff4

[albatrozz]

ok these are the links to them since they are somehow over 128KB's

my blue diamond in the non-filtered BB tank
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii268/albatrozz_photo/discus/P1220117.jpg

my blue diamond in planted community tank
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii268/albatrozz_photo/discus/P1220120.jpg

my turq
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii268/albatrozz_photo/discus/P1220121.jpg

my brown leopard
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii268/albatrozz_photo/discus/P1220122.jpg

my other leopard that has shrunk a couple cm's since i bought him >.<
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii268/albatrozz_photo/discus/P1220123.jpg

So what do you think guys? are they FULLY stunted? do u think they'll still grow?

[ILLUSN]

All those fish are stunted, the eyes is way too big for the fish.

the face is full enough, so they arn't under nourished, they're stunted from the water quality.

they'll grow but dont expect them to get to full size, if you dont fix whats wrong they'll all be dead within 2 years.

[Mr Discus]

You are telling me you have spent this much money on Discus and plants and lighting etc but not on filtration?

For the price of 3 good Discus you could have a very good quality canister filter running your system mate.

Sell something and go get a canister filter for gods sake! ;)

[albatrozz]

i got a canister filter in my planted tank but not in my new one, i am currently looking for one.

[Barry N]

As someone told me when I was starting out many years ago.....spend at least as much on your filtration as you do on the aquarium tank.

Water Management is the key to successfully keeping healthy discus. Water Management equals ample filtration and lots of frequent water changes. (Plus a few other variables) :lol:

[benjohnson]

Bloody hell.... the rate their going your not gonna have enough time to buy a filter , let alone cycle the damn thing..... theyll be dead ?!!?

I just dont understand why people buy fish then not the proper equipment to look after them . for god sake do yourself, and those poor fish a favour and get a filter as soon as possible , Then work out how your going to cycle it without killing them in the process .

Sorry if this sounds harsh , but if you dont have the equipment to look after them , then dont buy them.

[albatrozz]

?

Why is everyone flaming at me?

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR TO ALL YOU THICK PEOPLE WHO CANT READ,
I HAVE A EHEIM CANISTER FILTER IN MY MAIN PLANTED AQUARIUM WITH MY 10 DISCUS, I HAVE A HEATER, AND AIRSTONE, AND GREAT HIDING PLACES AS WELL AS I DO ALOT OF WC'S. GOT THAT?

I AM JUST ASKING OTHER PEOPLE IF FILTERS ARE A MUST FOR DISCUS SINCE I HAVE ANOTHER TANK BUT NOT THE FILTER FOR THAT TANK... GEEZ.... LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR AGAIN... I HAVE AN EHEIM CANISTER FILTER!! IN MY MAIN AQUARIUM!!! GOT THAT?

[albatrozz]

O AND BTW NONE OF MY DISCUS HAVE PERISHED IN ANY OF MY TANKS YET... THEY R ALL HEALTHY AND EATING WELL

hmmmm.... guess i proved you wrong?

[discuslover]

Calm down albatrozz, you have access to extremely exprienced people on this forum, and the point is even with a canister filter you still have a major over crowded situation in that tank with 10 discus. i have a 4ft x 20 X 20 with a standard 2ft operating at as a sump and yet i have maxed out at 5 Discus. I would say not only do you definately need filtration on you second tank i would also start trying to upgrade your existing filtration setup maybe adding a another canister.

hope this helps mate
Simon

[benjohnson]

The question wasn't about your planted tank with a filter attached to it, it was about the other tank, which has fish in ... which are stunted due to the fact you DONT have a filter attached to it.

Im glad none of your fish have died yet, and I hope sincerely none of them do . What I was saying was, that if you dont do anything about the fact you dont have a filter on your tank ( Again, not your planted one, the other one you were reffering with, which DOES have fish in ) they will die, no question.

[albatrozz]

the other tank has only 2 discus, in which are small and weak and i moved them into this tank because they barely get any chance to get a decent amount of food due to the other discus out speeding and bullying them when they try and get some. So your saying that if i leave them in this tank they will die? then i should move them back before they do... i have had them in this tank for 2 days and they are eating well and swimming around but if u say they'll die then ill move em back. I'll try get a sponge or canister filter this weekend

[benjohnson]

i got a canister filter in my planted tank but not in my new one, i am currently looking for one.

You clearly say above, that you dont have a filter on it....


the rate their going your not gonna have enough time to buy a filter , let alone cycle the damn thing..... theyll be dead

I clearly say here, that if your not careful, they WILL die... not that you have killed any already nor that you will... just that you need to sort out your filter

So... it would appear you are the one who "Can't Read" . Maybe take some time and think about what you say before kicking off at people who are trying to help you , even if you are stupid enough to ask a question like " Do I need a filter"

[benjohnson]

Put it this way , of you add a canister filter to that tank with those 2 fish in , the cycling process will kill them any way so the choice is yours

[ILLUSN]

Come on people settle down, as he said he's new and we've all done stuffed up before (did i ever tell you about the time i thought a baby saratoga would go great in a discus tank), everyone just has to get along.

albatrozz, sorry to say this mate but ALL the fish you've put up photos of are stunted. there are a few things that can cause this, malnutriton, over crowding, too small a tank.

judging from your pics, all your fish have nice full faces, and good solid bodies, so i'd say you've done an excelllent job feeding them up.

unfortunately, to grow up discus to a good size you need plenty of space, the litriture recomends 40L (10 gal US)/ fish for adults, as juvis (under 4 inches) you can safely double that.

the biggest problem with planted tanks is that they are hard to clean, for ideal growth you want your NO3 to be below 10 (I personally aim for below 5).

this sint good in a planted tank cause plants like the NO3 to be at about 15-20 as a minimum.

As i said before and a few others on this forum will also tell you, your better offf growing up your discus in a bare bottom tank till they reach adult hood (bout 5-6 inches body lenght) then moving them to the planted tank.

if you look at danDman's 215 gal tank you'll see waht i mean, that tank only has 9 discus in it.

planted tanks and discus do well together with a low bioload, that way the plants can metabolise all the NO3 the discus produce and everything stays at equilibrium.

your tank is over stocked and your fish are suffering, you havn't lost any fish yet cause your doing the best you can with what you have, you wont loose any for while but they will eventually just start getting sick for no reason and then they'll start to drop 1 by one.

trust me I've done it before and lost god only knows how many thousands of dollars worth of great fish.

[Barry N]

albatrozz, take the advice that's being given here - these people have kept (and killed fish themeselves whilst learning) more fish than you and I have had hot dinners!

Attacking people who take the time to help you will not earn you any favours or allow you to share from their experience in the future!!!

You are left with limited choices - keep them in the current tank and add a filter (and be aware of the inherent problems you will face with cycling the tank) or put them back where they were and have a good look at why the 2 are small and weak in the first place, and then cycle the new tank. There is plenty of info on the forum about doing this the right way.

Anyway, Good Luck with the 2 little ones.

[albatrozz]

actually i can read, there's a difference between reading and MISUNDERSTANDING, in your first post you said "I just dont understand why people buy fish then not the proper equipment to look after them".. now that is where i MISUNDERSTOOD you into thinking that u accused me of not having the right equipment for my fish when i do.. just not for my newly established one. and for the last post u said, how is asking a question about REALLY needing a filter for discus stupid? a local breeder breeds his discus with NO filter at all, he does 90% WC's daily and theyre fine... then again how is my question stupid?

[Barry N]

A lot of breeders turn over their water volume massive amounts every day with huge frequent water changes and get great results.

Wish I had the time :lol:

[benjohnson]

Ok ... sigh... :roll:

1) You Don't do 90% water changes, and if you claim you do , im pretty sure you would be lying. Breeders who do it full time would, maybe... but if you were doing that then you would have said already .

2) You dont have the proper equipment, because you dont have a filter on the "Newly Established" tank (Thats got fish in) . If thats confusing to you then im sorry. My original comment still stands.

3) You mouthing off is starting to get annoying. Lets just leave it as this.

Go buy a filter. Cycle it properly. Try not to kill the fish. The End.

[albatrozz]

hey illusn, thx for that info rlly helped me out but would u happen to know when discus FULLY STOP growing?

[albatrozz]

o and btw i never said i did it, i said a local breeder did it... appreciate your thoughts though.

[gypsy3]

i'm a little confused here - people are talking about overcrowding and stunted fish, and i get all that.but i also thought, and i THINK i had it confirmed in a previous post when i enquired about a person i know who had 20 discus ( actually it was 23) of varying sizes in a 6 footer, that it was ok as long as water quality was kept up. So now i need to know definitively - i have 15 fish of varying sizes, some adult, mostly juveniles, in a 6x2x2 heavily planted tank. fluval fx5, aqua 1 2400 and 2000l/hr powerhead. 50% water changes twice a week.Is this too many or how much is enough, given the conditions i just mentioned.

[Matt15]

Gypsy,
It is recomended that you have 40L (10 gal US) for each adult sized discus.
Your tank being 6x2x2 is = 179.53 U.S. gallons,
= 698.38 liters (approx)

So technically you would be safe in having your 15 Discus with good filtration. Obvisouly the more water changes you do the better/cleaner the water conditions are and having a good quality filter certainly helps.

I recently over stocked my small 3x2x1.5 for two weeks and to compensate this I did daily water changes and cleaned the filter each week.

Answers to this subject aren't black and white. There are soo many underlying factors to consider like:
- Size/number of filters
- Filter media
- How often you clean filter
- Plants (types/quanity)
- Water changes (type/quality)
- Food (over feeding/food types)
- Number of fish (Fish types)
- Gravel tank or bare bottom (How often do you clean with vacume)

But if you stick to the general rule of 40L (10 gal US) = 1 you should be safe.

[ILLUSN]

gypsy3 your setup is fine, your filtration excellent and youe shedual perfect, 50% changes 2x per week with massive filtration in a planted 6x2x2 is spot on for 15 fish, i do the same with 11 fish in my planted 6x2x2.

albatrozz, discus are an ectothermic animal and hence keep growing from birth till death, though to be fair their growth rate slows dramaticly once they reach breeding age (about 12-18 months). Hence breeders try to max their growth out for the first 6-9 months, as this is where they put on the bulk of their size.

i have a large saratoga over 12 years old in a 4x2x2, he's stopped growing (as in his size hasnt incrased) @ ~2foot (the width of the tank).

over the last 16 months hes been looking rattier and rattier, his scales have lost their lusture, the gill covers seem to be disolving, the fins once they get a tear dont seem to heal anymore, i wont have him come Xmas 2010 which is a real shame but thats how things go.

when fish stop growing they start dieing, once they become stunted their metabolisum starts to slow down and they start becoming suseptable to infections, gradually over time they becomer sicker and sicker for no reason and eventually just stop eating and die.

[albatrozz]

my discus are very fine though, theyve been like this for ages and ive never had any problems, they love eating and every time they see a person they all come to the top corner of the tank begging for more food. Well ill try to feed them more and do more WC's to try to help make them a tad bigger. thx

[taksan]

Rytis Mk 2 ...got any hydra buddy?

[Merrilyn]

Hi albatrozz. It's not a silly question at all.

You can certainly raise discus in an unfiltered tank, just as long as you have the time to do a 90% water change every day without fail.

If you miss even one day, the ammonia will build up and cause your fish problems. Ammonia poisoning is lethal.

Most of us don't have the luxury of that sort of spare time, so we use filters to do the job of removing the ammonia for us. Over time, a bacteria colony will grow in your filter media, converting ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate, which is easy to remove through water changes.

I don't think your adult fish have actually shrunk. Maybe they have increased in body height and it makes them look a little shorter.

Your juveniles on the other hand, are definately not doing well in your planted tank with the other adult fish. Juveniles are much more sensitive to water quality and will show it in their growth, or lack of growth.

Malaysian breeders never mix juveniles with adults because the juvies just don't do well. They miss out on food, and are subject to bullying, and fail to thrive. It's much better to try to keep fish of a similar size together.

Your main tank is overcrowded, but heck, we've all been guilty of that. Are you able to manage water changes of at least 50% twice a week? You'll get away with overcrowding so long as you keep the water quality pristine.

Now, for your smaller tank. Yes, I'd be putting the juveniles in there and try to feed them up. A simple sponge filter will work quite well with just two fish, so long as you can do frequent water changes. (Most of my breeding tanks containing one adult pair just had sponge filters in them, but I did change around 20% each day, and once a week they got a thorough scrub down and a 90% water change.

You can cycle your new sponge filter by leaving it running in the planted tank for two weeks before moving it to the small tank. During that time it will have been seeded by the bacteria in your mature Eheim filter.

The other way, and my preferred option is to put the sponge filter into the new tank (without fish) and carefully squeeze some of the well used filter media from your Eheim. Filter sponge or filter floss is great, and the gunkier the better. Within 24 hours, the sponge filter will have cleared the new tank and become instantly cycled from the mature bacteria in old filter media.

You can then safely add your juvenile fish. Feed them well, and try to do a water change every day, or at the very least, every second day. A plastic plant or something similar will give them a place to hide, and help them feel more secure.

I have seen some remarkable growth on juveniles that had been stunted, once the correct water conditions were provided and they were fed three or four times a day.

If you can put the time in, you may well find your fish will begin a growth spurt.

[pete159]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Aquarium-Canister-Filter-Complete-Filtration-System_W0QQitemZ320209810246QQihZ011QQcategoryZ207 54QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem