worming help please

[JoeDiscus85]

Alright heres my situation. I bought a cobalt from my lfs at first he didnt really eat didnt think much of it. As time progressed i took notice that he still wasnt eating to right away i went out and bought a jungle product for internal parasites bought the food with it and didnt see much progress. I know its some sort in internal problem because of white stringy poo he is dark in color and seperated from the group yes you heard me the group newbie mestake........ My lfs in normally really good with parasites and treating all their fish atleast their discus. So ive been monitoring everyone else and no problems good health and appetites. My temperature is up to 90 farenheit ive read this helps with parasites and increases appetite. So ive read a little about garlic use, I bought Kent marine garlic extreme and so far it works he is actually eating. I mix it in with their food everyday so they all get a good dose of the garlic. He seems to be doing better,eating stretching out his fins and his eyes are red again. His poo is still a little white with alot of yellow stuff is this him passing worms? Or a sign of internal infections? Im going to continue with this garlic extreme it seems to atleast getting his appetite up. Any ideas on what the yellow is???

[the german]

we need amonia nitrit and so on,so more data so easyer to help mate.
how many discus you have in that tank?
also looks like you have the wrong tankmates for discus :?

[fishgeek]

ideally you need to examine the feaces, worms should look like, well, worms

tapeworm will be segmented, others are not
healthy worms will be internal - swimming against the current ,gripping on so to speak... therefore not normally seen unless so many that the gut gets full and irritated, leading to faster contractions and some being expelled

otherwise only egg's are released(or in the case of tapeworm gravid segments of worm)... egg's are microscopic and need floatation , sedimentation adn magnification techniques to visualise

do you have access to magnification to look at feaces
otherwise the guess's are
metronidazol as a protozoal treatment
levamisol, or any benzimidazol, as a nematocide
praziquantel as a cestocide


the first 2 are much better given orally so if you have the fish eating medicated food maybe beneficial


the yellow ? could that be garlic related?
andrew

[JoeDiscus85]

My nitrates are 0ppm nitrites 0ppm ph 6.4, Temp 90 degrees, And ammonia .25 but that was before a 50 % water change,Tds 125 .I use r/o water and kent marine r/o right and kent marine trace elements to replace the lost minerals due to filtration. He is kinda slowing down on the eating again so i figure i better get a treatment, I looked at the poo and it looked like there were alot of eggs in it,Small brown eggs is this tape worm?? Ill be going to lfs tonight to see what they have for internal parasites. Btw i do a 25% waterr change everyday, So i know its now a water conditions,Could be stress related, I have 4 discus yes i know 4 discus i need some more,Im just getting into this and 65 bucks a fish keeps me collection SLOWLY. No one is real agressive with one another they all have places to hide in my heavily planted tank. Alright well i appreciate any help

Joe

[samir]

Joe you're problem is that your tank is not cycled, you can medicate all you want, unless you get rid of the ammonia it will just get worse.

[JoeDiscus85]

Joe you're problem is that your tank is not cycled, you can medicate all you want, unless you get rid of the ammonia it will just get worse.

I dont think thats the problem. I have 3 other discus besides that and they are terriffic. Since i bought them from my lfs they have doubled in size gotten a ton of color and everyone else in the tank is very healthy. When i bought the cobalt he wouldnt eat so i dont think its the tank cycle. I have more than enough filtration with 2 canister filter 1 fluval 305. And an eheim 2215 i use fluval ceramic for the bio and kent marine nitrate absorber for the chemical filtration. And have two hang on filters just for the heck of it so i doubt its the cycle. The 0.25 ammonia was due to my carelessness to siphon the food i feed heavily with live foods such as blood worms daphnia tubiflex beefheart brine shrimp and somtime formula one from jack wattley. Alright now i am certain that it was leftover food, Just tested ammonia and its reading 0 so im good on that

[JoeDiscus85]

???

[JoeDiscus85]

??

[Greggy]

I suggest you calm down and stop acting like a moron or no one will offer you help, whether it be on this forum or another. This forum provides you with access to VERY experienced and knowledgable Discus keepers so I think you shold show some respect. If you cannot do that then please leave. However if you are smart and truly care for your fish then stop wth the abuse and listen up. We all know you are fustrated as we've all been there/done that when it comes to keeping Discus.

First of all if you have NH3 (Ammonia) i your tank water then your tank isn't 100% cycled... it's as simple as that. Any detectable levels of Ammonia or Nitrite means the tank isn't cycled and this is going to cause you problems - problems ALOT worse than any internal parasite ever will. So sort that out 1st. Water changes will keep the NH3 and NO2 levels low so keep them up. Maybe step them up to 50% per day for a week or two until things settle down.

Treating for worms will be difficult whilst doing (large) daily water changes. Andrew has already told you how to treat all the types of worms that you need to worry about. There are a few 'sticky' articles on this Forum on how to best treat worms and other parasites. I suggest you go and read some of them and fully understand what you are dealing with. Once you do this you will know exactly what steps to take. Basically you want to treat with Levamisole for round & hook worms and treat with Praziquantel for tape worms. Metronidazole will sort out Hex, HITH and HLLE casued by a protazoan infection that is more or less 'managed' rather than ever being 'cured'. Note that planted tanks seem to suffer less from these kinds of infections mainly due to the extra vitamins the fish receive when nibbling on plant material here and there.

The treatments of each are these should be systematic and probably given individually in most cases, as sometimes the cumulative effect of treatments can actually be worse than the parasite(s) you are trying to eradicate.

If you are really serious about keeping Discus (and you should be because they are very rewarding) you should remove the Gourami's (and any Angel fish) from your tank as these fish can harbour worms and infections because often they are more resistent to these diseases than Discus for various reasons. You could almost say that Discus are the ultimate indicator fish... i.e. if your Discus are thriving your doing something right!

It's virtually impossible to avoid buying fish that have no diseases/parasites so all you can do is treat them in the correct manner and you will prevail. So get reading and study up what your dealing with and treat accordingly, as comming to a forum and barking out negative comments as you have above might make you feel better but isn't going to help your Discus or improve your Discus keeping skills.

Let us know how you go. Good luck!

Regards,

Greggy

[Merrilyn]

Just take a step back Joe and take a deep breath.

Your post has been answered by three very experienced discus keepers, one of whom is a QUALIFIED VET !

They've gone straight to the problem as they see it.

If they haven't mentioned garlic, it's because they see garlic as neither a problem or cure.

Most of us who make our own beef heart recipe, add garlic to the mix anyway. It will stimulate the appetite, but won't cure parasites.

[Th0mas]

As stated by Samir, the ammonia is a potential cause of the problem. Getting rid of it is a way to eliminate the possibility and/or complication.

Since you've already noted the stringy poo - that's usually indicate infection of hexamitas. The fish has been eating better after you've given it garlic extreme - so my guess for the yellow stuff it's passing out is likely to be garlic.

Have you read the thread below in regard to hexamitas treatment?

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2475

Live food is another good source for infection - unless you're absolutely certain they're clean (cultivated in a sterile and control environment), otherwise there's always an element of a doubt. All fish are different, one discus may show problem while others may not. So treat this as a warning sign as well.

Based on your descriptions (and that single out-of-focus picture), it is impossible to precisely determine what type of infection your discus has. Therefore no one will be able to diagnose your discus' infection hence most would not bother to reply as you suggested.

Please take a step back, and allows time for people to get back to you. We all love our fish, and we know how much it hurt when the fish is ill and unable to do anything about it.

PS: Can you provide the detail of what's used for the treatment so far? If the medication contains broad spectrum anti-bacterial this can be the reason for the ammonia spike as the bacteria responsible for cycling would be knocked out as well.

PSS: What's the filtration setup? Normal biological filtration shouldn't remove any trace element hence this shouldn't be the reason for replenishing them.

[samir]

gee, what did I miss ??? :ug

every single discus you will ever own, will have flagellates, for them to become a problem you need to stop changing water or have ammonia readings for a couple of days or more.

you can treat it with metronidazole, but if you still have ammonia readings it will come back within a week, and the next time the metro wont work as well.

A nitrate reading of zero is a bit odd for a cycled tank, especially if you're an overfeeder.

[JoeDiscus85]

Hey guys i am sorry about that. I am just so super frustrated there is so much literature out there and its very difficult to determine what to do about my fish.Im still a young guy of 22 so i get a hot head eveyonce ina while. So i tested my tank again ive been doing this daily since ive read your posts and my ammonia is still low at 0 my nitrites are at zero and my nitrates are at 5.0 ph 6.4 ive been doing more frequent water changes his appetite is up some more but still hiding and skittish. Ive read about some heat treatments about hex that is cannot survive 90 degrees so ive had my tank up to 90 for a week or so now maybe a little more is that bad? How long can i leave it at 90 noone seems bothered at all. I stepped up the oxygen by attaching it to one of my powerheads so its quite a dispersement of bubbles. Again i am sorry for being a bit of an arse

Joe

[JoeDiscus85]

Btw who is the vet??? Ive been kicking the idea around in my head for a while about going back to school to become a vet. On a scale of 1-10 how difficult is it? I'd have to learn serious patience

[JoeDiscus85]

" PSS: What's the filtration setup? Normal biological filtration shouldn't remove any trace element hence this shouldn't be the reason for replenishing them."


I have more than enough filtration with 2 canister filter 1 fluval 305. And an eheim 2215 i use fluval ceramic for the bio and kent marine nitrate absorber for the chemical filtration

[JoeDiscus85]

"PS: Can you provide the detail of what's used for the treatment so far? If the medication contains broad spectrum anti-bacterial this can be the reason for the ammonia spike as the bacteria responsible for cycling would be knocked out as well"


Also i did treat them with some internal parasite guard from jungle main ingredients being metro and prazi but the problem was my store only had one bottle of the stuff and that only lasted for one and a half treatments so i had to wait for them to get more. They got some more and ive been treating with it ever since today i have to change 1/4 and continue with a fresh new batch of med. I am constantly treating with melafix and pima fix these fish are like kids keeping their wounds clean lol

Joe

[ILLUSN]

your filter need to mature, this can take anyware from 3 weeks (fishless cycle) to 90 days.

first the bacteria will develop which convert NH3/NH4 to NO2. when this happens the NH3 will reduce down to 0 and the NO2 will spike.

then the second type of bacteria colonise the filters and convert NO2 to NO3.

No3 is removed by water changes or under anerobic condition NO3 is converted to N2 and O2 and released as gas.

the frequant water changes might be masking your ammonia and NO2 (by constantly taking them out your filter will take A LONG TIME to cycle, still better that then loose your fish).

Hex will survive at 90f, i get it in tanks at 32C.

it doesnt like a low pH though, so if you can get the pH down to 5.0 it will fix its self up with good water quality and a good diet.

[JoeDiscus85]

I just dont understand why the filters arent cycled. I havent lost one fish in the year ive been doing this no joke either i havent lost one fish. I better knock on wood NOW! lol. Ive been using the same filters for a while i had them all on a 20 gallon for about 6 months and now they are all on my 40 gallon for about 6 months. Would fish show signs of the tank being uncycled? They all seem so happy and constantly busy they have grown massive in size well over double they all eat like a horse except the one. So what do you suggest as far as how to cycle my tank?? Is that product called cycle any good? I used it a long time ago when i was a kid trying to setup my piranha tank poor fish didnt last a week under my watch lol.

[ILLUSN]

if you increased your bio load suddenly it can upset the equilibrium of your filter and one population can out grow the other resulting in ammonia or NO2 spikes.

also if you dont maintain your filter properly organics can build up within the sintered glass of the filter media and cause acidification, resulting in death of your filter bacteria.,

cycle is ok if its fresh, your better off just letting nature do its thing, your sick fish is probably just more sensative then the rest.

just give it the best water quality you can, thats the best thing you can do.

[JoeDiscus85]

Alright today is the last day of my metro prazi treatment. He still isnt really eating,Once in a while ill catch him eating somthing. But i havent seen one bit of poop. Normally he would have white intestinal like poo i havent seen any poo in 3-4 days now is this a good thing?? I mean i know it couldnt be a bad thing. His color is coming back and his eyes have gotten alot more red, They were dark black for a while do you think the meds are working??? How long after treatment will it take for his appetite to come back??? thanks all


Joe

[ILLUSN]

the fish can survive for over a week with minimal weight loss, if the color is comming back, hes on the mend, keep up the water quality, if you can offer small ammounts of food often (every 4-6 hours works well). try some live brine shrimp that youve loaded up on spirolina, once they start eating again they'll get their appitite back.

[Greggy]

Well done! It sounds like things are improving... keep up the good work and you'll be one happy Discus keeper in no time.

Don't forget to treat them with Levamisole once you've finished up with the Metro and Praziquantel treatments. This will knock out the worms that Prazi is ineffective against.

If you are strict with your tank maintenance I'm sure you will do very well, as you definitely care about your fish and this will provide you with the motivation to do all those jobs we'd rather put off but can't... just resist the temptation to ever say "I'm sure it will be alright if I skip this weeks water change". Missing a week (or two) will likely not cause problems, but its simply a bad habit to get into and before too long you will have problems again.

My only advice now is to begin setting your tank up as a planted Discus display tank, which starts with getting rid of any fish that don't really fit that description (e.g. the Gouramis). IMO Cardinals, Rummy Noses, Black Neons, BNs, SAEs, Corys and Kuhlie Loaches make the best tank mates for Discus. Temp should be around 28-29C as (most) aquarium plants don't like it too much above level.

Regards,

Greggy

[JoeDiscus85]

Well things do seem to be better he has a nice appetite now eating alot!!. He is getting color back think he is on the up swing. The tank is very very planted about 10 amazon swords i red rubin sword wads of hornwort and some sagarmantha ive been trying to find a good home for my other fishes its not so easy... I care alot about them so i just cant give them to anyone, ive raised all of my fish from small babies well ill keep you all updated

[JoeDiscus85]

I have one more lil problem.... The very same discus had one cloudy eye the other one is perfect and clear but its other one is constantly clearing up then getting cloudy again... It seemed to clear up during my metro/prazi treatment. Ive read somtimes cloud eye is a sign on internal parsites is this true??? Also i use melafix to try to heal it up but ive also read posts that melafix doesnt affect discus due to their unique slime coat?? And yes ive been changing my water 1/4 everyother day now is it not likely to be parasites due to it only being on one side?? Thanks for the help


Joe

[ILLUSN]

give him a week or so.

it will clear up once he feels better, if it hasnt cleared in the next 3 days start treatment with protozin

[JoeDiscus85]

Well done! It sounds like things are improving... keep up the good work and you'll be one happy Discus keeper in no time.

Don't forget to treat them with Levamisole once you've finished up with the Metro and Praziquantel treatments. This will knock out the worms that Prazi is ineffective against.

If you are strict with your tank maintenance I'm sure you will do very well, as you definitely care about your fish and this will provide you with the motivation to do all those jobs we'd rather put off but can't... just resist the temptation to ever say "I'm sure it will be alright if I skip this weeks water change". Missing a week (or two) will likely not cause problems, but its simply a bad habit to get into and before too long you will have problems again.

My only advice now is to begin setting your tank up as a planted Discus display tank, which starts with getting rid of any fish that don't really fit that description (e.g. the Gouramis). IMO Cardinals, Rummy Noses, Black Neons, BNs, SAEs, Corys and Kuhlie Loaches make the best tank mates for Discus. Temp should be around 28-29C as (most) aquarium plants don't like it too much above level.

Regards,

Greggy


Do you know what a more common name for the levamisole? I called my lfs and asked if he had any he didnt.. He did have some medicated food for internal parasites. He also has meracyn(sp) 1 and 2 dont know if that will help at all...

Joe

[Th0mas]

This can be found in many poultry worming products (Big L is the one we use locally). Not sure what's available in the US, probably the above two sticky thread have some information which you can relate to.

[JoeDiscus85]

Well his eye is still pretty cloudy. Do any parasites manifest themselves in the eye itself??? Because it looks like at the very bottom of his eye there is somthing white on the inside of the eye. Could this be some sort of parasite?? Id love to get a pic but i really dont think it will show any clues???


Joe

[fishgeek]

hypopyon... inflammation of the anterior chamber of the eye.. leads to pus in anterior chamber and snow shaker like appearance, ie the pus settles to bottom


and to answer your question there are nematodes and trematodes that have been found in the globe


andrew

[JoeDiscus85]

What sort of meds would you reccomend to treat this? Its weird somtimes the eye will be totally clear of cloud eye then other days its cloudy again... I dont think its due to bad water i do 1/4 every other day.


Joe

[jkomaromi]

Hello there,
I have used NILVERIM for pig and poultry wormer with a good deal of success.
Please read http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/nematodes.html#5
I have learned a good deal from it.
Good luck to you.

[fishgeek]

eye problems ... most typically without seeing it i woud only suggest very clean water, the cornea will go hazy when it is irritated as water can enter the tissue and make it kind of opaque
this can happen with physical damage , netting bagging etc
or because of inflammation from a specific eye problem

as far as internal parasites of the eye , i think they are generally not a common nor major issue.. i will check the books for anything i am not remembering

it is really inappropriate to advice based on a guess , any sort of photo available to make a bit more sense of it?

could the fish being bullied and in hiding actually damaging the eye?
this thread didnt start as an eye problem so i would assume that it is a secondary part of being run down and hopefully will improve with water

merrily samir illusion, what are your thoughts on slat for osmotic effect in eye cloudiness?

[ILLUSN]

Andrew, truth be told I like Salt.

it's a great tonic for the fish, its cheep, its redily available, it detoxifies nitrite and its VERY hard to overdose.

whenever my fish look off color the first things i reach for is the siphon and the salt.

The advised dose is 1 tsp/40L but my preferd dose is 2tsp/40L (then again i used to breed bettas where i used it by the handfull, so this is proably just and old habit)

if the cloudiness goes away for a day then comes back again I'd still be thinking a water issue (NH3 or NO2).

Give 2tsp/40L (your plants wont like this) and try, make to sure that you keep up daily changes with aged water.

if you can grab your self a small hospital tank and move him into that untill he's back at 100%

[djceri_g]

isnt cloudy eyes bought on through a ph spike?

[JoeDiscus85]

I cant really get a good picture of it. Well the discus had always had the cloud eye since a few days after i got him wich is over a month now... He does get bullied a little bit. Somtimes the eye will totally clear other times its cloudy again. I just dont get it im almost 100% sure its not water but im doing a big change tonight so we shall see thanks for all of you help guys.


Joe

[JoeDiscus85]

Aged water??? I use r/o with kent marine r/o right thats not good???

[ILLUSN]

ro will be fine, so long as you put back in some trace elements

the cloudy eye can be caused by a ph swing, either a spike or a crash.

[JoeDiscus85]

"Note that planted tanks seem to suffer less from these kinds of infections mainly due to the extra vitamins the fish receive when nibbling on plant material here and there. "




Ive noticed my discus nibbling on my hornwort plants wasnt sure if they really were eating it. Guess now i know thanks Greggy



Joe

[JoeDiscus85]

"ro will be fine, so long as you put back in some trace elements "



Absolutely Illusn i keep a stock up on kent marines trace minerals.



Joe

[JoeDiscus85]

Well just a little update guys. My discus is a totally new fish.. What an appetite on him i cant beleive it honestly. His color is about 85% back. I treated him for his cloud eye with a product from jungle the active ingredients are as follows( sodium chloride,nitrofurazone,furazolidone,pottassium dichromate) I put this product in about 3 days ago, the next day i woke up and all of the cloud eye was gone. I am amazed!!!!!!!! And all cloud eye is still gone thanks Jungle labs, I really do feel badly for all of you who cant get medicine very readily


Joe