The ideal water parameters??

[Rowland]

Hi All

Some of you may have had a look at some of my collection of wilds. I have about 50 in total at this stage, with some more to arrive. They are the following strains: Tefe Greens, Heckels, Nhamunda blues, Semi and royals from Nhamunda, Pineapple Heckels, Xingu browns, Alenquer Reds, Curipera reds. The fish are generally healthy and doing well, eating tetra bits, beef heart, artemia, blood worm, cyclops, flake and some imported german foods.

My problem is, although they are doing well, there seems to be no breeding behavious, not even pairing up....
I think it is a water parameter problem. Although nitrates and nitrites and ammonia are at zero, my pH varies between 7.2 and 7.5. It does go lower if I hold back on water changes, but this would in turn pose other problems. Water comes out of the tap at pH 8

I have been advised in the past to rather get the discus to adapt to our water rather than manipulate the water as it can become unstable. I am adding nothing and do not have a RO unit, but would look at purchasing if it were necessary.

Some thoughts please.

[fish_r]

i have a Heckle and heckle cross pair that were laying eggs about every 4-5 days when my pH was around 4.8 but have since raised the pH to 6.7 and they havn't layed a single egg since...

[Rowland]

I can understand that I don't have their pH right, but what is the best and safest way to bring it down?

[Merrilyn]

I agree with fish_r.

You need to get the pH down to at least below 6.

You could try using a chemical product that lowers the pH, but I think you may find that investing in an RO unit will be the ideal solution.

[Rowland]

Any products you would recommend Merrilyn?

[Rowland]

Merrilyn, sorry to bug you, but did you get a chance to have a look at the pics I put up. Would just appreciate some feedback from someone with your experience.

[Merrilyn]

We have a product in Australia called "pH Down" which works extremely well, but you need to adjust the replacement water when doing water changes.

You could also try using peat in your filter. It will soften the water and is a gentle way to reduce pH.

If your water has a high GH or KH reading, the pH will bounce back up over the next 48 hours or so, which is why an RO unit will provide the only permanent solution, because it removes all the minerals from the water.

[Rowland]

Thanks Merrilyn...the RO unit it is then.

[Merrilyn]

Your fish are stunning Rowland. I'd love to have some of them in my tanks :P

I think if you can get the pH down, you'll see stronger colours and some proper pairing behaviour.

I use peat and indian almond leaves in my tanks, along with a heap of driftwood to add tannins to the water and turn it a slight tea colour. The wilds love it and are a lot more active in the low pH and darker coloured water.

Frequent water changes are also important for wilds. I do two water changes a week of at least 40% each.

[Rowland]

Thanks so much Merrilyn.
As happy as they seem, I believe they could be a bit better, and I really think duplicating there original water conditions is the key. Thanks for all the advice

[Merrilyn]

Good luck.

Don't forget to post some pictures of the fry when they breed :wink:

[samir]

for 50 fish I'd assume you need at least 3000 litres. for that much water you'd be better off using hydrochloric acid.

[Rowland]

Yes, closer to 4000 samir. Just concerned about how much to use and the pH rebound. How long should I let it stabilise before adding it to the tank?

[Squid]

I got told to make them (discus) adapt to the local hard and high pH water. Worked for a little while. The hybrids do fine but the wilds had issues with it. High pH in discus significantly inhibits their ability with gill osmoregulation. Use the RO but be careful - RO extracts too much solute so dont use 100% RO water or they will all be dead within 24 hrs. Another product I have use in Aust in the last 6 months is a SEACHEM product - discus buffer. Actually precipitates calcium out as a white powder for you to suck up.

Mate - if you can - put in a rainwater tank as rainwater is the key. If you use products such as pH down, remember it will increase the phosphate levels somewhat. Noticed here that wild discus hate high phosphate levels.

Squid

[Rowland]

Sqid, thanks for your great advice. Am going to set up a rainwater tank, but thought of running RO as back up. Won't use 100% RO.

So much to learn.....

[Peter M]

Hi Rowland

With regards to the choice you make, look for the simplest way to keep things consistent and stable from what is readily available to you, maybe use a fishless tank while you develop your “formula”, until you feel this will work for you. Then gradually change to this water to the tank you wish to stimulate spawning.

[Rowland]

Thanks Pete...great advice. Now just to find a fishless tank. Should be able to do this soon.

[Gajowa]

Hi
We are using pure RO for our wild discus for more than a year, and they are happy. From time to time we add some minerals to the water and only 1/2 suggested doses.
The only suggestion I may have is, to keep heckels separate from other wilds. Heckels need pH 4,5 at the most, were others will be quite happy in pH 5,5.



Use the RO but be careful - RO extracts too much solute so dont use 100% RO water or they will all be dead within 24 hrs.

Squid

Can you please explain that? Why do you say that discus will die within 24 hours?

Barbara

[Rowland]

Many thanks barabara

[Squid]

Gajowa - I accidentally hit the wrong Icon!!! . Please refer to my new thread in this sub forum (wild discussion) regrading RO . Sorry - I wasn't wearing my glasses

Squid

[Peter M]

Hi

Discussions like this often left me very confused in the past (fact or fiction) that it really betrayed my confidence in what I was doing (which was soul destroying) because there are sooooo… many variations as to what is correct. However, what I have found out through correspondence is that “municipal/tap” water parameters are not always the same for a hobbyist in Australia compared to England, America Germany and in South Africa for example. So trying to replicate some one else’s formula ‘based” on their success using my municipal water (not theirs) was a big mistake and deserved to have my wrists slapped…lol.
So it all depends on the quality of the tap water in your area to begin with.

But the questions that we need to ask is “What part of the Amazon water do I need to duplicate that my particular wild/strain will be happy and breed in?”

and

How can I change “my tap” water to these conditions?


IMO... If you decide to dose with acid to reduce pH (of your target) you will shift the equilibrium towards the “acidic” side in relation to the amount of acid used, but the calcium and magnesium “kh” (Ca2+ and Mg2+) does not “really disappear"… it is still there, maybe less then originally. This shift to a lower pH may trigger them to pair or spawn but with low fertilization thus a low hatch percentage or non, but having said that, if your tap has a kh less than 6 (reading from ones test kits) a higher percentage could be achieved but by using “less” acid (to reach your target). So in here there can be a few variables to ones formula and this can also get tricky because tap water sometimes change from time to time…lol

So in summary, acids will lower your pH, and since “most” test kits (can’t remember them all) that test for hardness are actually measuring alkalinity, your hardness would appear to decrease when adding an acid but in fact it would have remained the same

With an RO (which is necessary), this will remove Ca2+ and Mg2+ …etc, thus lowering your pH with little or no kh (buffering) you could get a lot of pH swings which can general make it not safe “but” near perfect for fertilization, so the birth of a formula for good criteria is in the making, that can work for you 8-) but may not work for some one else. :(

So for testing, rather use a Ca/Mg test kit to know the true hardness and a test kit that measures alkalinity and/or a good ph meter and your tap as the base line.

So Rowland…I don’t think I’ve help answer your question but I hope I got you going in the right direction on these two options. This is where I made a “lots” of mistakes getting to understand it better and still cry about it when I think back on my silliness. When you get a chance, ask Prof Dirk about that promised lecture for the Cape Town guys, there was a lot of useful info and some great general knowledge, one that always comes to mind is…why the Amazon water is colder in summer hotter in winter??…lol

Ps: I did some thing wrong and lost some of my post when I entered it, but I fixed it.

[dandaman352]

My fish have become alot happy since I got my RO filter. I basically fill up some buckets, heat it up. Add RO Right and Kent Discus essentials . As well as fixing the ph in each bucket before dumping it in the tank during water changes. You should see results are a couple of water changes but in a 4000 liter tank it could be quite a few number of water changes. Make sure since you have a big big tank like that, you purchase an RO filter that has a high number of GPD (or LPD for you aussies). Or it'll take a long long time for those water changes.

After a couple of water changes, you'll have everything mastered and your ph/parameters will stay the same within each water change.

Hope that helps to.

Dan

[FNQ]

Spawning in the wild coincides with the start of the wet season when there is a mass influx of fresh, tannin rich rain water. try a 50% water change with rain water that has a high tannin load. (catappa leaves soaked in it for a week ets.)