Starting again,just a few questions

[fud]

After seeing all your tanks,I've decided to start again & do it properly this time.
I have new lights(2x96w CF),tank size is 900x450x500H.I've given up on DIY CO2 & got a Milwaulkee reg.&ph controller,& I'll be using pool filter sand as a substrate.Most of my questions have been answered in older posts,but I still need some advice:

-As my plants have a alot of hair algae,will a bleach dip cure this or should I bite the bullet & get all new plants?
-I'll be keeping the water (the discus seem to like it),so will I just be putting algae back as spores?(I can't afford UV at present)
-If so,will low ferts & a bunch of wysteria fix this?
-Is there an Aust. version of Jobes spikes? I have flourish tabs at present.
-Does anyone know where I can get some E.parvula? All I can get is E.acicularis which is too tall for a carpet in a tank of this size IMO.

I used to be happy with my sad looking algae farm,but I'd really like to have a tank worthy of posting(right now it looks like Charlie Brown's christmas tree next to yours.

I know that's alot of questions for 1 post,but any help with any of them would be greatly appreciated.
cheers,Gareth.

[Greggy]

If your battling algae you should either reduce the light or consider manually adding KNO3 if your Nitrate levels are too low.

I've been working on how best to deal with algae (in particular BBA) in my medium to heavily planted 6x2x2 Discus tank and I'm glad to say I'm finally winning the war! I found this site helped alot http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

Until recently my plants seemed to be struggling - I was adding various ferts and DIY CO2. Light levels are ok (256Watts of fluros) yet BBA Algae was beginning to grow everywhere. I didn't have any green algae at all. I was confused because I thought if I was overdosing ferts that I'd have a virtually green tank... not so! I was effectively adding too much micro nutrients (Iron etc) but I didn't have enough macro nutrients (NPK) because low Nitrogen (and possibly also Potassium) levels were likely limiting the uptake of the other nutrients. In this environment the blue/green algae was flourishing. It basically had all the rest of the nutrients (especially phosphate) to itself. It was in BBA Heaven!

For several months my Nitrate (NO3) levels have always been zero (below detection limit) probably because the plants in my tank where using more Nitrate than what was being produced, so one of the limiting nutrients was obviosuly Nitrogen (a macro nutrient mind you). This is not a good nutrient to limit! I thought low to zero Nitrate was a good thing for planted Discus tank but this is not true.

So I read various online articles regarding controlling algae and just recently began adding KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) to add extra Nitrate and also add more Potassium (K) because its a macro nutrient too. What a turn of events! Now the blue/green algae is almost gone and my plants are finally doing really well again. I try to keep Nitrate levels between 5 and 10ppm and so far my Discus and other tank inhabitants haven't noticed it! I'm adding 1/4 of a tea spoon of KNO3 powder every day and the Nitrate levels are not climbing so I know they are being used up by the plants.

I actually prefer adding KNO3 manually instead of just increasing the bio-load on the tank (e.g. more fish) because the added Nitrate does not need to be produced from harmful Ammonia --> Nitrite --> Nitrate meaning that if something goes wrong I can simply do a few water changes and/or stop adding KNO3 and I know my Nitrate levels will go down instantly so its easy to manage. If my Nitrate levels go up I simply reduce the asmount of KNO3 I'm adding. If I need more Nitrate I just add more... simple!

Maybe you also need to consider this approach.

Regards,

Greggy

[fud]

Thanks Greggy for such an informative reply(I've bookmarked the link). I agree that a nut. imbalance played a major part .I had a run of bad yeast mixes,probably my fault,CO2 dropped to <10ppm,algae started & I was told to stop ferts to starve algae.Bad advice,just starved the plants.
As i'm new to planted tanks I relied too much on one person's advice rather than doing my homework,serves me right! Now that I have test kits, a drop checker (don't really trust the pH/kH charts) and a better understanding of what's actually happening in my tank I am winning the battle.
I'll still start the tank again however as most of my plant choices were poor to say the least.I'll also be using dry ferts this time around . I always seem to have to learn things the hard way!
Thanks again mate,
Gareth.

[Mr Discus]

As far as getting new plants goes - I think you'd be happier in the long run just getting new ones.

By all means slavage any that you really like or have little algae growth on them, but if you are going to do things right this time I would think it best to start over plant wise if you are wanting to correctly control an algae problem that you had in a previous setup - especially if you are transferring water over.

Start with a semi-clean slate and keep it clean I say!

[fud]

Thanks Mr Discus,that's what I thought.It's mainly the green flame & the amazon I wanted to keep.I've tried a bleach dip on one of the green flame "babies" & I'll see how it goes.

[axl]

Hey Greggy,
just read your post about your issues with algea, and i have jsut read that article with the calculator in it, pitty its not in english. How much kno3 have you been adding to your tank, as i have algea on my anubius and i just did a phosphate test and got a reading of 0.75. I problaly havent got any nitrate, my tank is 435ltrs and i have just added 1 teaspoon of kno3 to the tank according to chucks calculator that will give me 7ppm of nitrate. how often will i have to add kno3. cheers Axl

[Greggy]

Hi axl,

Just be careful adding KNO3 as you don't want to add too much at once, just slowly bring up the Nitrate levels until you reach your desired concentration - around 5 to 10ppm NO3 is probably a good point to aim at.

Right now I'm adding 1/4 of a teaspoon of KNO3 every day and my NO3 levels are still below 5ppm - my plants must have a large appetite! But what I have noticed is that the BBA algae is 'dying off' which is a sign that the plants are taking up more nutrients.

I've also noticed that since adding KNO3 my healthier plants are 'pearling' a significant amount, and the ones with small 'wounds' are bubbling tiny bubbles of O2 which is quite interesting to watch.

The amount of KNO3 to add will be different from tank to tank. You basically have to monitor you Nitrate levels and if you see it go above 10ppm slow down or reduce your dose rate. If you see it staying below 5ppm then I'd suggest slightly increasing the dose amount. I think a small amount of KNO3 every day is better than a large amount added just once per week.

It must be funny for the non-planted tank owners to read this thread... we are actually adding what they so desparately are trying to get rid of!

Regards,

Greggy

[Scotty Bils]

Greggy I am lapping this up!!

How do you et your hands on KNO3? Is this it? http://www.aquariumsuppliesaustralia.com.au/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1007

or

http://www.aquariumsuppliesaustralia.com.au/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1009??

or ???????????

[fud]

Hi Scotty,
KNO3 is Potassium Nitrate,which is a dry(powdered) chemical used to dose nitrate & a small amount of potassium.AQUAGREEN has it for sale on their site,Rex Grigg has alot of info about dry ferts & how to prepare them on his site.
cheers,Gareth

[tzwms]

Wow, facinating stuff. :shock: Here I have been trying to keep the nitrate levels low with weekly water changes and now I may be adding it. I think that I will go do some water testing!! :D

[Greggy]

Yes its very interesting isn't it!

We all thought Nitrate was bad, but it appears that Nitrate is only 'bad' in higher doses (likely to happen in a non-planted aquarium) and in a planted aquarium its only bad if above a certain amount such as 30ppm. My research has lead me to believe that NO3 levels between 5 and 20ppm are very safe to aquarium fish (Discus included).

Have a look at this information regarding the Redfield Ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redfield_ratio It seems mother nature has it all worked out - we simply need to follow her lead!

In Australia you can get Potasium Nitrate (KNO3) from either a chemical shop (I got mine from Sigma Chemicals in Balcatta WA who are also a pool chemical shop) or perhaps try an online store such as http://www.aquagreen.com.au/catalog.html

For those who care I've been adding a 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 every day and still my NO3 levels are still less than 5ppm - I might need to increase this dosage slightly.

I hope other Discus owners with planted tanks see this thread, but I'm reluctant to come out with guns blazing saying that KNO3 is the best thing since sliced bread for planted Discus aquariums until a few of you guys can back these findings up. Its certainly helping me so far.

What I do wonder about is why did every LFS failed to tell me I needed at least some NO3 in my planted tank? They all said NO3 was bad and that my algae and slow plant growth was from limited nutrients and then tried to sell me expensive smelly water (plant fertilizers) when in actual fact perhaps some super-cheap KNO3 is what was really needed!

Do I smell a conspiracy? ;-)

Regards,

Greggy

[tzwms]

Greggy,
How large is the tank that you are adding 1/4 teaspoon per day?

thanks,

[Greggy]

It's a 6x2x2 tank so around 650L (gross)

[Scotty Bils]

Greggy, I am on board with this.

I have been down to my LFS and I asked them about why they do not reccomend to add Nitrate to the tank. They explained to me that they do not reccoment as there are too many noobs that just do not have a clue and it is dangerous, maybe we are going to be changing all that!!

After talking with my LFS they were 100% for me to add in Nitrate into the tank and I am going to use the following and see how I go. They even gave it to me for net to nothing as I said I would provide some feedback to them.

I have bought is - AQUA MASTER - Aquatic Plant Root Fertiliser Tablets.

They are -
10% Nitrogen (N)
5.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
2.4% Nitrate Nitrogen
0.6% Urea nitrogen
1.5% Water insoluable Nitrogen
14% Available Phosphate
Soluble Potash 8%
Boron 0.02%
Soluble Copper 0.05%
Soluble Iron 0.11%
Soluble Manganese 12%
Molybdenum 0.0006%
Soluable Zinc 0.07%

So far I have crused them up and made a mix with 500ml of distilled water.

I am still testing this so will provide some more feedback on this thread.

[ILLUSN]

Scotty Bils: the 0.5% urea nitrogen is a little higher then I'd like, that stuff is basicly concentrated ammonia.

the best Thing I've found for BBA is just to up the CO2, if you can hit 30ppm it dissapears almost overnight.

fud: an alternative to KNO3 is KCl. KNO3 is perfect in a tank like greggys where NO3 is 0, in other tanks it can be a problem as you'll want to keep it below 10.

if your going to put 200w of light over a 200L tank you have 1w/L (4w/gal) that is a HIGH LIGHT TANK! you'll need to keep up your CO2 and your macro nutrients (especially K) to keep algae under controle in that tank the plants do better with the 96w 10000k/plant tubes tubes (trust me i use them on my tank after playing with the entire catalina range).

you can bleach your plants if they are worth saving, as an alternative to jobes use osmocote native plant granuels (roll them is some clay from the garden, bout 10 granules/ball).

bang a heap of fast growing plants in there dose micro nutrients as required.

Lastly put up heaps of pics, with the right gear (most of which you have), thats going to be one awesome tank!

[fud]

Thanks for the advice ILLUSN. Yes it is alot of light,the pigeons have nearly lost their peppering! (I hope it's the light,water is fine & they're active & eating well).
I'm using 1x6700k & 1x10000k.The 10000k is at the front & only on a few hours a day until the plants take off.
I put flourite under the sand & have only added K & some trace mix so far,tank is only 5 days old.I still have some flourish tabs,should I add these now, or is the flourite enough until the plants get established?
The wallichii(spelling?) has already grown 2 inches & I'll have to prune soon. Do you prune from the top or the bottom? Stellata hasn't done much yet, not enough micros/trace, or am I being impatient?
Red lotus has put out a leaf a day so far.I'm still worried about it though,as the rhizome became separated during planting(was only hanging by a thread to begin with).I've just left it in the sand next to the plant.
I've got several nice crypts & aponogetons & a few dwarf blyxa.I'd like to add some riccia covered driftwood as well.

I'll post pics when I work out how to take photos without flash.Can anyone help with settings(shutterspeed,aperture etc)It's a canon A710 if that helps,I'm hopeless with techy stuff.
Hopefully I've got it right this time,thanks again,
fud.

[ILLUSN]

flourite is quite good, its abit lacking in macros, but some root ferts would take care of that, it should be good for 3-6 months before the plants stop growing.

i prune mine from the top, it makes it bush out really nice.
dont worry too much about the lotus, they are tough as,. they will soon start producing a new tuber (its just a storage organ) if they are growing in flourite.

stellata will get going when its good and ready, it doesn't grow as fast as Walchalli, but its not a slow grower.

[fud]

Thanks for the quick reply ILLUSN.
The flourite was all I could get locally & thought it would be better than just sand. The bristlenose seem to like it,they've set up a flourite mine under the driftwood & keep chucking it everywhere. I'm sure they mean well....
I've planted the walachii as a bunch, if it gets bushy I'd better separate the stems now before the roots get established. I might prune the ambulia from the bottom to keep it as stems & slow it down a bit.I'm happy to hear I didn't kill the lotus it cost 1/3 of my plant budget (I've got a feeling that budget might go the way of every other one I've had so far!)
Forgot about the KCl before.I haven't heard of it .I assume that it's an alternative to K2SO4? What happens to the chloride after the K is used by the plants? I was going to use K2SO4 & KNO3 as nitrates are <5 atm,so when the plants get going I thought I'd need to add nitrates to keep it ~10ppm.
Thanks again,fud

[ILLUSN]

the Cl- ion is harmless in the concentrations you'll be using in a fish tank I "borrow" the stuff from work, but i dont imagine it would be hard to come by, i use K2SO4 when i run out of KCl and i's just as good, SO4 ion might bring up your tds a bit more then Cl- is my only concern. all i use 1 tsp/30-50% change in a 6x2x2 (650L).

If you have trouble with your tiger lotus shoot me off a PM and I might be able to help.

[fud]

No luck finding KCl so far,I'll keep looking.
Reread your post on lights,I assume you meant 10000k not 1000k?
The lotus is still going strong,pruned some of the upper leaves to make room for the new ones.
Will the detached rhizome grow,or should I remove it before it rots?
I'm still trying to find E.parvula for a carpet,do you know where i can get some?
I'll post pics on the weekend after I've had time to play with the camera.
Cheers,fud.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks fud, sorry about the typo, i ment 10000k
I dont think the rhizome will grow a new plant, but you never know.

E.parvula will be hard to come by as most LFS wont stock it, try a goole serch for some of the specialty aquatic plant dealers in australia

[fud]

I've googled my guts out many times & got nowhere,time for plan B.Now if only I had a plan B. Maybe concrete the foreground & paint it green.....

[insanedoh]

Hi, Sorry to run off-topic again, but a question about KNO3.

I want to try out adding KNO3 to my tank to get some BBA under control (it's really starting to take over part of the tank, especially on swords, lotus & vals, getting a bit worried about the lotus, it's quite fragile but otherwise seems to be growing very well)

I'm having some trouble locating some to purchase though, would prefer to purchase from online store unless there is one local i can drop into (i'm in Mount Waverley/Melbourne). I emailed Aqua Green but they're unable to ship it at the moment (courier issues?) Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks muchly

- Carly

[fud]

Hi Carly,
I've found that the best way to kill BBA is to spot treat with Flourish Excel. I load up a small plastic dropper & just squirt a drop onto the BBA.
After a couple of days it turns a pinky brown & dies. If you have alot of it & you have Val. in the tank, do it a bit at a time as too much Excel can melt Val
I doubt just adding KNO3 will solve your problem anyway.Maybe if Nitrates are the limiting factor it's addition can help the plants out compete algae, but other things can cause BBA as well,dead spots in the tank ,CO2 issues for example.
The Excel will kill it but it won't fix the problem. I'm sure our gurus can help you more than I can, but I hope this has helped,
Cheers,fud.