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insanedoh
Sat Dec 01, 2007, 08:54 AM
Hi everyone, just after some assistance in determining what's wrong with my discus! (and what to do to make them happy again!) They're hiding and clamping their fins, have gone dark in color and seem to have a whitish coating on some or all of their body (not cottony/fungal looking), they're not eating as much and just look sad and lethargic! I'm worried that it might be Discus Disease? Any ideas? Some of them are worse than others, but looks like they're all affected. Everyone else in the tank looks OK.

I've got 5 discus in a 4ft community tank (different sizes & color variations) They all get along OK, although the smallest one gets picked on sometimes. Ammonia is ~0 ph is ~6 and everything else is OK. I've done a few water changes in the last couple of days and been coursing with melafix & pimafix & stress coat. Other fish are apistos, plecos, BNs, corys, kili fish, black ghost knife etc etc! No-one seems to be picking on the discus at all.

Here's one of the worst affected (and the first one I noticed looking sick - he's now a lot darker in color, this was taken a couple of days ago when it just started ), the other 2 smallest discuses are also very unwell, my 2 mediums are not 100% but not as bad as this..
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/IMG_5612Large.jpg

Info I got off a few websites indicates it might be discus disease.. the recommended treatment is metronidazole (Flagyl) based medication, has anyone tried these before?! Will it have any adverse effects if I use it on either other fish or on the discus, will it matter if i put it in and it turns out not to be discus disease? Can I obtain it in Melbourne anywhere? Some sites also recommend salt, but i've heard that you shouldn't use salt with discus.

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/discus_plague.htm

The Discus Plague is a term often used to describe a common Discus disease, where Discus show the following symptoms:

* Dark background color
* Clamped fins
* Hiding in a dark corner in the tank
* The body mucus is visibly heavy, and often comes off the Discus

It appears this disease is probably caused by a virus, and there is no known cure. This disease only affects Discus. It is not all that uncommon for all Discus in the tank to come down with the disease, except for the new Discus that were introduced sometime in the last two weeks. Discus that have had the disease can be a carrier of the virus. This disease is highly contagious and ultraviolet sterilization does little to prevent it from spreading from tank to tank. Just having two tanks in the same house that don't even come in contact with each other will often be enough to see it spread. It seems that the virus can go airborne, or maybe just putting your hand in one tank and not properly cleaning your hand before you stick it in another tank will cause it to spread. This disease is like the flu in humans, it will run its course and then your strong healthy Discus will recover. This disease will often kill small and old Discus. It is not all that uncommon that the discus hobbyist will loose half of his discus to this disease.

During the time the Discus have the disease they will still eat, but not as vigorously as when they are feeling one hundred percent. I recommend that you reduce the amount of food you feed them during this period to prevent any unnecessary pollution.

I normally don't do anything except frequent water changes (50% or more daily) for this disease. Frequent water changes will help reduce the organic load in the water column and increase the oxygen carrying capacity. Any attempts to medicate do nothing to cure the disease. Adding medication to the aquarium may cause more unnecessary stress the Discus can do without. This disease can take up to three weeks to run its course. Once your Discus are looking normal again, they will have some immunity to the disease for a while.

After your Discus have had the disease I would not recommend adding any new Discus to the aquarium for at least 6 months. If you add a Discus before then, you run the risk of the new Discus coming down with the disease.

I see this disease most commonly in Discus that are imported from Asia. The process of getting the Discus from Asia to your aquarium store is a multi step process. The Discus normally goes through 2 or 3 wholesaler hands before they end up in the aquarium store. In this process the Discus have several opportunities to be exposed to the virus. It is most unfortunate that the fish go through this process, because this is normally how the fish end up with the disease. The Discus that are produced in Asia are among the best in the world. It's the process of getting them to your local aquarium store that makes them a risky buy. For this reason it is always safer to buy domestically bred Discus.


You're help would be much appreciated!! Thanks :)

- Carly

samir
Sat Dec 01, 2007, 09:26 AM
bring the ph down to 5, keep changing water and aerate heavily. metro is prescription only. It is very effective.

you can also treat with tetracycline for 10 days, with ph at 5, heavy aeration and daily water changes. they should recover enough in a week or so. getting them back to peak condition can take upto a month. cover tank when treating with antibiotics.

insanedoh
Thu Dec 06, 2007, 05:24 AM
Thanks Samir, sorry for delay in my reply! Still considering what to do, I can't get ahold of Metro, vet says I need to bring the fish in (will probably kill the fish in the process with the stress, plus it's more expensive to do than the fish itself!)

I have put some vitamin tablets into the tank (recommendation from LFS) and i'm doing daily water changes, pimafix/melaxifx weekly & stress coat/water conditioner with changes.

I don't want to treat the entire tank with anything that will put the other fish or the filter at risk, So I'm considering puting the affected fish in a bucket or empty tank and filling with their water and treating in there (maybe with tetracycline?) daily water changes & and airstone etc.

Do you think this will be effective? A couple of the discus are not so bad, they are still eating and have not gone "dark" they just clamp their fins, and have started to chase each other (strange!) 1 of the other fish seems OK one day and colorful and fine and then dark every other day, it is eating OK. The worst affected is not eating (that i've seen) is very dark, clamping fins, heaps of excess mucus and hiding a lot. (this would be the one I would consider treating mostly).. Should I treat all discus in this way in a bucket together or just the ones that really do look sick? (I've lost one discus already, very small and fragile one, wasn't really coming out much prior to this anyways, he was always hiding, very small and didn't eat much that I saw)

I think my water was slightly hard? Will test again when I get home and report back on my findings.. otherwise the water seems ok.. UV filter is now in there too. heaps of plants and mostly everyone else seems OK.

Also, one of my apistos has come down with some sort of "dropsy" protruding scales etc, noticed it this morning, he's not swimming so well so I don't expect he will survive through today, i'll see when I get home from work.

ILLUSN
Thu Dec 06, 2007, 05:55 AM
pimafix and melafix are useless for discus, their slimecoat stops the drugs from working.

a bucket heater and airstone makes a fine hospital tank, just make sure the heater is holding temp before you put the fish in.

if other fish are comming down with dropsy, then your in big trouble.

dose the tank with tetracycline and recycle the filter. Dropsy is a nasty bacterial infection that will wipe out your entire tank 1 fish at a time over the next few months.

ozarowana
Thu Dec 06, 2007, 10:39 AM
IMO it looks like a parasite problem.

kikoman
Thu Dec 06, 2007, 09:06 PM
yea... need a LOT of water changing and put ur heater to 30degrees...

insanedoh
Fri Dec 07, 2007, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the replies & advice ! - Had a bit of a development.. it's not Discus disease, it's "jumped" into the other tank (next to it) and couple of the large fish are coming down with the same symptoms (clamped fin, not eating, hiding & white "mucus" on their sides) Affecting the sevrums, choc cichlid & maybe couple of the others. (no other signs of the "dropsy" at the moment, keeping a close eye on all the fish).

Heater is turned up to 30 and water changes are happening.. i've stopped feeding so often to minimise pollution. Had no luck getting flagyl, i have something simular to tetracycline, (tri-sulfa tablets), haven't put them in yet though. Two of my discus seem completely "normal" now one is so so and the worst one is still bad, so there are some improvements i guess. Considering that that's all that's affected in that tank I don't think I want to risk the plecos & others by adding the anti-bacterial and re-cycling the tank. Will watch the discus for another couple of days then maybe hospitalise if still not better. Affected fish seem to have excess tail/fin rot, those that have "recovered" seem to be ok though.

So yer, guess i'm still at a bit of a loss at what to do and what i'm treating.. here's some more pics anyways, see what you think! (sorry some of the photos are not very clear)

Tank 1:
Sickest discus:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5688Large.jpg
Same discus, without flash: (fish is very dark)
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5689Large.jpg
Discus with mucus mostly on tail/fin not so bad on body, not dark
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5693Large.jpg
Discus recovered, seems fine:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5683Large.jpg
Other discus, seems to have recovered a lot also:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5691Large.jpg

Tank2:
Unwell sevrum: (his eye has been unwell for a long time, not sure whether he can see, but it's unrelated)
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5668Large.jpg
Unwell 2nd Sevrum: (breeding pair)
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5670Large.jpg
Unwell Angel:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k138/insanedoh/sick%20fish/IMG_5673Large.jpg

ILLUSN
Fri Dec 07, 2007, 10:09 PM
sounds more and more like plague, its airborn, i've had it move from one tank to another to another, get some metro, if need be take your sickest fish to vet. not worth loosing all your fish to the disease, you've got about 72hrs to act otherwise treatment becomes very hard.

samir
Sat Dec 08, 2007, 12:28 AM
ever wondered why a fish would go face up at the surface, do you think perhaps it needs more air ?

insanedoh
Sat Dec 08, 2007, 02:20 AM
Well, we've treated both tanks with octo (couldn't get hold of metro and Octo was advised to be a better solution for the rest of the tank/bio system than puting in tetra - still wasn't cheap though 60$!!!) So guess we'll see how it goes! *cross fingers*

heaps of air in the tank have a 30cm tube airstone + filter water pressure to move the water around. Sevrum is sitting on the bottom now :(

Thanks again for the advice.. guess we just sit and watch and wait now! (and complete treatment etc)

Wasn't clear on the packaging, we do a water change 72 hours or 5 days after start of treatment? (treatment is 1 dose per day for 3 days). We've diluted the first dose and put it in , turned down the lighting, temp at 30, carbon out of the filter and UV filter turned off. lids are on and food is sparse ;)

Merrilyn
Sun Dec 09, 2007, 12:39 AM
It still looks like discus plague to me.

It can jump species, and I've seen it in angels too.

Most important thing at this stage is to get the pH down to around 5.

Keep up the treatment with octozin, and just wait it out. With care, they should all recover well.

ILLUSN
Sun Dec 09, 2007, 04:44 AM
octzin works great if you cant get metro, I use it at 2x the dose on the bottle.

samir
Sun Dec 09, 2007, 06:13 AM
Most important thing at this stage is to get the pH down to around 5.


and don't forget this.. good luck

insanedoh
Mon Dec 10, 2007, 11:54 PM
Thanks everyone again, really appreciate all the input & help!

It's a bit of good news and a bit of bad news..

Our "Big Daddy" green severum sadly died as have two of the angels.. the other sevrum ("Big Mummy") and chocolate cichlid don't look so well.. (although the sevrum is still managing to eat) .. strange that these fish which I would think are much "stronger" than my discus have seemed to be hardest hit with deaths.. i only lost one discus and it was small & weak in the first place

The "docile" pink firemouth has assumed control of the tank in the severums absence and proceeded to chase the sick fish and every other fish in the tank until the syadontis decided that it had had enough and chased it mercifully around the tank (i had to laugh!!).. bit worried though that firemouth is stressing them out, will keep an eye on it.. i can put a divider in the tank if need be, but i'd prefer not to.

In the other tank the discus look like they're recovering the sickest one even started nibbling at some food and a bit of color is coming back! So that's something happy at least, the other 3 discus are looking well too aside from a little fin clamping every now and then.

Happy to say, no more signs of other sick fish in the tank (any of the catfish or smaller fish)

So, we've done our 3 days of treatment, today is day 4 so no more medications. It says something on teh bottle about "diluting" it after 72 hrs or 5 days, any advice on that? should we do a large ie: 50% water change 72 hours AFTER finishing treatment or?! or should i start doing some more small changes? Any tips to further help the other larger cichlids? I'm a bit worried they won't make it it :( Not so worried about the discus at the moment as they seem to be recovering.. (nb.. discus have had this for over a week and the other tank has only been since friday or so?)

Oh, and i've finally setup my quarantine/sick tank, it's starting it's cycle i guess. Any suggestion on fish I could put in there while it cycles? I'd prefer to not buy any new ones, but I don't have any other than neon tetras that i'd be willing to put in it! (and the tetras might not have enough "impact" on the cycle right, being so small?) it's a jebo r338 or something, i haven't got the internal filter medium, so i've put in a seperate little filter & airstone and a bit of slate for a cave and a "bridge" ;) Want to put some drift wood/plants in there, will do soonish. I've set the temp to ~27 (seeing as my discus tank is normally 28 and the other tank ~26. Not sure where i should try and set the pH, discus tank is usually ~6 and other tank is normally ~7. Won't be able to use it for awhile anyways until it's done cycling, hopefully won't need to !! :)

Thanks again,

- Carly

ILLUSN
Tue Dec 11, 2007, 12:54 AM
If i'm setting up a hospital tank i dont usually cycle it, i put in a sponge or box filter for mech filtration, often the meds knock the filter bacteria around anyway.

set the ph low, bacteria have more trouble multiplying at a low ph (my hospital tanks are usually at a ph of 5.0).

Id wait till day 5 to do the water change, octozin hangs about in thew water after the last dose and a couple of extra days will help take care of any free flagellets.