Experiences with Metro+ and HITH

[fishguy2727]

I am curious about people's experiences with Metro+ (or other metronidazole medications) and treating HITH. I am particularly interested in when it worked (what the HITH looked like, the treatment used, scarring, time needed for it to be cured, etc.). I am also interested in when it didn't work (what the HITH looked like, what did end up working, what else didn't work, etc.).

I have two experiences with Metro+ in treating HITH. One was with my discus. I had a couple develop HITH. I did not change anything except using Metro+. The HITH was the narrow, deep type and discharge was present (so much that in one you couldn't see the hole). The HITH quickly went away with the use of the Metro+. They have no scarring.

My other experience was with a large jaguar cichlid that did not really have HITH but HLLE. The holes were shallow and wide. There was no reaction to the Metro+. There were no stray electrical currents in the tank.

I am differentiating between HITH and HLLE as HITH being the narrow deep pits, in some cases discharge is present. If Hexamita spp. or other protozoa are ever responsible, it seems to be with this type. HLLE may not include the lateral line, but are characteristic of shallow, wide pits that do not include discharge.

[ILLUSN]

i believe that once the bacteria are killed it takes time for the tissue to regenerate, if youve got wide open sores these will take longer to heal and may leave scaring, where as the smaller "deeper" holes take less time (smaller patch of tissue to regenerate, less surface area exposes so smaller less noticablt scaring).

a few of my (and dads) older fish have some scars from hith on the face, but these were big wounds.

in all cases metro has worked very well at stopping the infection but a good diet was needed to repair the damage.

[fishguy2727]

It is not a bacteria, it is a protozoan parasite. But thank you. I would like all the responses I can get so that I and others can get a better view of trends involved with HITH/HLLE.

[Merrilyn]

I agree with you fishguy. It does seem to take two different forms, with the smaller, deeper holes being much easier to cure.

I have had large fish (not discus) with HLLE and whilst I treated with metro, I believe it was more the change in diet that healed the fish. I see you are feeding a good quality dry food, and although that is advertised as a complete food, I'm still very sceptical about one food supplying all the nutrients a fish needs. And yes, I have read all the literature. Whilst I agree it is an excellent food, and I do use it myself, especially the Grow Formula, I don't feed it to the exclusion of all else.

The addition of more greens in the diet seemed to have more of an effect on the healing of the larger fish than the metro, although I suspect the combination of the two was necessary.

[samir]

The addition of more greens in the diet seemed to have more of an effect on the healing of the larger fish than the metro,

I've read somewhere that discus in a planted tank never get HITH. Is that true ?

[Merrilyn]

Hmmmmm now you've got me thinking.

Trying to remember if I've ever seen HITH in a planted tank. Certainly the large fish I'm referring to above wasn't in a planted tank when the HLLE became evident, but again, I've never seen a case of it since I've been adding more green vegetable matter to the beef heart mix.

Interesting thought Samir. Hopefully we'll get some more comments from other enthusiasts.

[samir]

I've never seen a case of it since I've been adding more green vegetable matter to the beef heart mix.
.

i've had the one case that I have caused, and it happened a couple of months after I stopped adding greens to my mix.

[fishguy2727]

That has come up repeatedly, that discus in planted tansk do not seem to get HITH. All evidence that I have seen points to discus not being able to truly thrive on beefheart or mainly beefheart diets.

I was also very skeptical of NLS and its claims, but after I read more about it and saw the results others were getting (The owner of NLS has a 2,000 gallon or something to that effect saltwater tank that has been fed nothing but NLS for seven years now, as well as user after user describing their results) I decided to give it a shot. So far so good. They were on it when they got HITH, but that was when I first had them. There are a few things that may have been stressing them (my hard water, the school settling out and working out who is who, etc.). Since they reacted so well to the Metro+ it seems that may have gotten rid of the parasites and now that they have settled in together (and I removed the ones that weren't) and have gotten used to the hard water (I don't even buffer it anymore, so they are in 7.8 or so but doing well in it). So yes, I agree to be skepical of any claims as astounding as NLS's, but we should also be open to them being true or at least partially true. This one seems to be true as it is made out to be.

Hexamita spp. as well as Spironucleus vortens have both been shown to be associated with HITH. It seems that S. vortens may be more responsible than Hexamita spp. The good thing is that both respond to metronidazole.

I am interested in all cases, not just those with discus.
What were the large fish?
Did they have the narrow deep pits or wide shallow pits?

[ILLUSN]

i've hd fish in a planted tank get hith, to be honest it was after a bout of plague.

[fishguy2727]

Were they discus?

[ILLUSN]

yep, if were talking 2 types of hith it was the small deep hole type. they all recovered with no scaring

[fishguy2727]

How did you treat them for it?

[ILLUSN]

once i got them over the plague i fed them 3x a day (beefheart mix, color bits/breeders blend flake, live brine shrimp) and did daily 50% water changes while keeping the ph at 6.0. kept this up for a month and all fish recovered bar one (had a really close look today and one has a few very small scars bout the size of a scale or 2)

[Merrilyn]

The large fish I'm referring to was a large male braziliensis who developed the early signs of HLLE.
He was in a non planted tank at the time.

The pits were the larger shallow type which responded to metro and additional vegetable matter added to the diet.

He was completely healed within 3 weeks with no sign of scarring.

[fishguy2727]

Did you do both the Metro and the greens at the same time? Or did you start one then the other as well?

[Merrilyn]

Both at the same time.

I had read somewhere that HLLE is diet related. That some particular element is missing from the food.

As the fish was in the early stages, I decided to attack on both fronts, and fortunately it was successful. The fish remained on the higher vegetable diet and the HLLE never returned.

[apistodiscus]

HITH is now called lateral line erosion. Whatever you call it, it only occurs in very soft water. At present, it is believed to be caused by a lack of minerals.
Here's what's on the jbl website (www.jbl.de)
Hole disease / Spironucleus/ Hexamita / Flagellates / Protoopalina

Hole disease is caused by flagellates of the Spironucleus or Protoopalina species. Under certain conditions, which have not yet been clearly specified, a massive increase occurs in the number the flagellates which live in the intestines of the fish. They pose serious competition with the fish for minerals, with the result that the fish then suffer from mineral deficiency. As a reaction to the mineral deficiency, the fish breaks down its own skeleton to obtain minerals. Since the largest mass of bone substance is in the region of the head, disintegration is particularly extreme in this area, appearing as holes. At the same time the flagellates move on to the nearest surface of the body. As the holes represent the nearest surface of the body, the flagellates can be found at the bottom of the holes. In the past, only the flagellate was thought to be responsible for this disease. In fact, a combination of mineral deficiency and a massive increase in the numbers of flagellates lead to the formation of holes.
Holes can also be caused by tapeworms, threadworms and fish tuberculosis, as well as incorrect feeding.
Remedy: Increase the mineral content of the water by adding JBL AquaDur plus. Hole disease has only been observed in very soft water so far. The flagellates can then be combated by adding JBL Spirohexol.

[fishguy2727]

That is not true. For one, my water is very hard and I have unfortunately experienced it a few times, so it only occuring in soft water is completely wrong. Secondly, MANY, if not MOST, cases do not react to metronidazole (and other medicines), showing it is not Hexamita spp. or Spironucleus vortens. When it is not the parasite induced form I consider it HLLE as opposed to HITH. HLLE seems to be associated with poor/incomplete diet and/or water quality/parameters.

I have not heard anything about bone loss resulting in the holes. That doesn't really make sense either. IF the bones are being borken down to retrieve minerals lacking in the diet/water, then the bones would become less dense, not really resulting in holes on the surface. These aren't sinkholes, they are live tissue.

It seems that when it is the parasitic form the actual cause of the holes are that the parasites become lodged in small capillaries, resulting in tissue death, which is observable as the holes. These blood cut-offs occur in areas where there is a lot of capillaries, which is definitely the case around areas with a lot of nerve cells, the lateral line system which includes areas on the head.