MY DISCUS IS WORST....

[kikoman]

My discus turns dark in color and has some slimey thing on his body!
some said its a plague! coz' all of my discus got the slimey thing... but I already did water change and and the slimey thing is gone....

this discus on the pix turns really dark and has heavy slimey on his body... but when I did the water change yesterday he turn back to his color and still has the slime... u be the judge...

I haven't put any meds yet... i just do water changing more often and really heat it up the water...

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Bluec_8/Photo-0447.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Bluec_8/Photo-0446.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Bluec_8/Photo-0448.jpg

photo quality poor (cam phone)

[ILLUSN]

could be some kind of irritant in the water, if it looks better after a water change the cleaner water is helping.

what are your water parameters NH3/NH4 NO3 NO2 pH etc

is the fish hiding and scared all the time, has it lost it's appitite, can you see white faces?

if it is plague, lower your ph down to 5 and give 2x daily changes of 90-200% with acidic water (pH 5) till you get some metro

[kikoman]

yes... he hides most of the time and he loss his apetite and NO i haven't seen any white feces....

[kikoman]

woOw... my sister just bought a LIVE WORMS... and they love it!!!

[ILLUSN]

if your feeding live worms follow up with a paracite treatment like prazi and big L, they always contain bugs. once he starts putting some weight back on ween him onto beefheart.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Kikoman,

if your discus is still eating, do a PP treatment....from your picture, it is feeling uneasy.

After treatment, raise up the temperature to 30c.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[kikoman]

ohhh thanks guys....
and andrew? what do u mean by PP treatment?
Yea... i'll do that ILLUSN... they wont eat my beefheart but we tried feeding them live worm and they love it...

THANKS GUYZ!!!!

[Andrew Soh]

Potassium Permanganate 24 hours prophylactic treatment.

It is good as after a proper treatment with PP, you can ascertain and narrow down other possible causes if your discus is still sick after that treatment. Treatment is done @ 2mg per litre of water for only 24 hours.

In other words, after 24 hours, siphon out the treated water and refill with new water.

Take care,
Andrew

[ILLUSN]

if you feed a little beefheart with the worms, the worms will clump around it, when they eat the worms they eat the beefheart, they'll develop a taste for it over a couple of weeks.

[apistodiscus]

potassium permanganete is a fairly harsh treatment. I wouldn't do it. Especially since most people wouldn't have the scales to measure such minute quantities. I also do not think that the fish very diseased by any parasites but it is more likely that a water issue was the cause of their darkening. Too much nitrite will make them go dark.
Since the fish in question are eating I would leave them alone and keep an eye on water partameters rather than dumping more chemicals into the tank

[Andrew Soh]

PP treatment is not at all and will never be a harsh treatment if done @ 2mg per litre of water @ pH 6 to 7.

It is only stressful to discus if done @ 2.5 to 3mg per litre of water and done for 3 to 4 days in a stretch....

Also, if done in water above pH8, it could be toxic and also should never use under trace of formalin in the tank.

Normal healthy discus given that 2mg per litre prophylactic can still eat and spawn during the treatment. That definitely proves that it is not stressful at all and safe.

Take care,
Andrew

[samir]

potassium permanganate is a fairly harsh treatment. I wouldn't do it.

not at Andrew's dose of 2mg/l. Even one inch fry can tolerate it with absolutely no problems. tank must be spotless (no organic matter) or it will be ineffective.

Do on day 1,4 and 7 with very large water change after each 24 hour dose. I have recently being do it will all new fish before introducing them in with the old ones.

[apistodiscus]

tank must be spotless (no organic matter) or it will be ineffetive

Are you suggesting to turn off the filter?

And why bother tp treat in the first place if the fish are feeding now? Still got the issue of weighing the proper amount of pp.
If the fish have been newley introduced they could have taken a bit of a 'knock' in transfer and thus started shedding their mucus. It happens and is generally nothing to worry about. A few Indian Almond tree leaves and the fish will improve rapidly.
I don't get people who keep discus (or any fish for that matter) in a sterile enivironment, in bare bottom tanks and throw chemicals at them without any cause to do so. Fish deserve better and you get an alltogether more eye-pleasing picture. Furthermore your fish will have a better working immune system if exposed to a 'real environment' rather than keeping them like so many mass breeders do in Asia. No wonder the discus plaque originated in fish from that area. And probably the reason why I only get wild fish or those from breeders in the Czech Republic or Germany who introduce their broods to real aquarium conditions before selling them on. I gladly pay the difference.
I also don't feed beefheart but fish/shellfish mixtures. My fish aren't as big as those championship attrocities but look more like a wild caught fish.
FYI, didn't have to use any antibiotics in about 20 years. Good husbandry goes a lot further than relying on medications to do the job for you.

[samir]

you sure don't seem to like your Asians. from "sushi eating Japanese" to the atrocities that win championships.

[apistodiscus]

Sorry, I might need to quantify this. No problems with Asians just Asian discus :lol:

[fishgeek]

samir when using potasium permangante in pond treatment applications a crude rule of thumb for establishing whether your oxidative potential has been used up by organics in the water

if the water turns brown within 12 hrs(so dose am) then you have lost the oxidation on organics rather than on possible pathogens

andrew

[samir]

thanks Andrew. next time I'll try to keep it pink for 12 hours. I usually add 2mg/l after it turns brown. did my entire system a few months ago, took 9mg/l in all.

[kikoman]

I totally agree with apistidiscus.... hehehe... coz' in the wild there's no such meds.... they only rely on the nature hehehe.... anywyz I did the leaves! and it really works!!! the slime coat is now shedding but he still got the cloudiness in the eyes but he eats...

Thanks to samir, and andrew, and ILLUSN for helping a lot I really appreciated it.... but i wouldn't take chances w/ the PP treatment... sorry... coz' i'm poor w/ calculating things... and I have my discus for a while now... i stilll really trust my instinct of keeping them healthy... and as of now their doin great!!! THANKS YOU GUYZ!!!

[apistodiscus]

I totally agree with apistidiscus.... hehehe... coz' in the wild there's no such meds.... they only rely on the nature hehehe.... anywyz I did the leaves! and it really works!!! the slime coat is now shedding but he still got the cloudiness in the eyes but he eats...

Thanks to samir, and andrew, and ILLUSN for helping a lot I really appreciated it.... but i wouldn't take chances w/ the PP treatment... sorry... coz' i'm poor w/ calculating things... and I have my discus for a while now... i stilll really trust my instinct of keeping them healthy... and as of now their doin great!!! THANKS YOU GUYZ!!!

Glad your discus are doing better. However, don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to medicate. BTW discus tend to live a lot longer in captivity than in nature.

[kikoman]

ohhh oki thanks....

[Andrew Soh]

PP is cheap and for those who do not have a mg weighing machine...I know it is a problem but I strongly feel that a serious hobbyist or breeder should have one. Anyway, they can use it to weigh gold too..... :wink:

The other way is to weigh 3gm....that is easy, right? Put it into a 1.5 litre water bottle or the common mineral water bottle they sell. Shake well and when a 100 litre tank needs PP treatment, use a measuring jar and pour out 100ml.....simple as that. My preferred shelf-life is one week....throw the unused...and mix new when needed....its cheap.

This will give you 2mg per litre concentration. 100ml of stock solution to 100 litre of water or 200ml to 200litre of water or 50ml to 50litre of water......all these give you 2mg per litre concentration.....

Everyone trying to help, Kikoman, and PP is just my suggestion. Just trying to help but you can don't follow any of my suggestion.

Prophylactic treatment...which means precautionary treatment. I use that if I know that the discus were fed with frozen or live freshwater aquatic animal like blackworms or bloodworms. Even healthy humans practise prophylactic treatment everyday. Sure....yes the soap. We humans are not confined in a fix volume of water thus using soap is to clean and reduce possible pathogens.

In a confined environment like aquarium, how are we going to reduce the bacteria count or pathogen count? Take out the discus and wash with soap and put them back or do something like PP treatment to reduce possible threat? Which is better??? That's why I advise PROPHYLACTIC TREATMENT

***I remembered a friend of mine who never had problem owning cars for 30 years.....told me and my friends over beer....how good he was with cars ...never had problem. I on the other hand always had problems....many...with my old and new cars......finally learned to check the car every week...sometimes everyday before moving off and able to discover problems before they turn into the unimaginable..

One day, in the middle of the night, I received an SOS from that friend.....went to help him....and realised his car overheated, radiator dried up and the unavoidable....engine burned and needed overhaul.

Maybe I am too serious...my treatments are tough......because in the past, I have a livelyhood to take care of....I cannot keep having my farm overhauled.

Take care buds,
Andrew

[Merrilyn]

That's good advice Andrew. Thankyou.

[apistodiscus]

Prophylactic treatment...which means precautionary treatment. I use that if I know that the discus were fed with frozen or live freshwater aquatic animal like blackworms or bloodworms. Even healthy humans practise prophylactic treatment everyday. Sure....yes the soap. We humans are not confined in a fix volume of water thus using soap is to clean and reduce possible pathogens.

In a confined environment like aquarium, how are we going to reduce the bacteria count or pathogen count? Take out the discus and wash with soap and put them back or do something like PP treatment to reduce possible threat? Which is better??? That's why I advise PROPHYLACTIC TREATMENT



But you wouldn't swallow the soap, would you? Your filter bacteria won't be that happy about the PP treatment either.
I wouldn't buy fish that have been fed bloodworm. It's like weaning a heroin addict of the drug to get them to feed on anything else. Black worm in Asia are bred by feeding them chicken manure and I do take your point. The ones out of my rain barrel are perfectly safe, though.

The over-reliance on drugs in fishkeeping these days is a very worrying trend IMO. Just have a look at guppys in the shops these days. Their mortality rate is ridiculous because the breeding stock is kept in an artificial environment by adding antibiotics to keep them stable. Their immune system cannot handle normal aquarium conditions.

How do you keep a low pathogen count in your tanks. Simple, good husbandry. Regular waterchanges and watch what you feed them. Worked for me for decades.
The only thing I do when I get new discus is to quaranteen them for six weeks and worm them with Flubenol while they are in quarantine. Wild discus as do most wild caught fish generally carry some sort of worm or fluke. Three doses of Flubenol or one of Gyrodol (made by JBL) and that's all the medication any of my fish will ever be exposed to unless they are obviously sick.

[samir]

I wouldn't buy fish that have been fed bloodworm. It's like weaning a heroin addict of the drug to get them to feed on anything else.


i've had heckles eating granules out of my hand in 12 hours. maybe the heroin your side is stronger. I'm not a big bloodworm fan but I've never had that problem. I'd suggest a trip to the Singapore discus forum, there's always something to learn.

btw kikoman how is the fish doing ???

[apistodiscus]

Lucky you. Friend of mine had to starve the poor fish half to death before they started taking anything else but bloodworm. Chopped up garden worm finally did the trick

[samir]

I'm not lucky. I've been learning from people on this forum.

[apistodiscus]

Not sure what you learned but if you get a discus that has been exclusively fed on bloodworm for a while you will not get them to feed on granules after 12 hours. I am not talking about the occassional feed but mainstay of their diet.

BTW, I used to work wholesale and saw what fish came in Singapore and let me put this mildly. it wouldn't be the best place for everybody concerned to see one of their fishfarms. I deplore parrot cichlids, Flowerhorns, all sorts of misfigured (balloon, etc) fish. No place for me.

[samir]

Not sure what you learned but if you get a discus that has been exclusively fed on bloodworm for a while you will not get them to feed on granules after 12 hours. I am not talking about the occassional feed but mainstay of their diet.


I prefer the SE Asian way of keeping discus, they are the world's most knowledgeable and successful breeders of discus.

Maybe a little less bigotry and a more open mind will help. That way you'll be able to buy exclusively bloodworm fed discus, and get them on to granules almost instantly. Would be a breath of fresh air from those plain old turks.

[apistodiscus]

I prefer the SE Asian way of keeping discus, they are the world's most knowledgeable and successful breeders of discus.

Maybe a little less bigotry and a more open mind will help. That way you'll be able to buy exclusively bloodworm fed discus, and get them on to granules almost instantly. Would be a breath of fresh air from those plain old turks.

Bare bottom tanks are not my thing. It's not bigotry on my behalf just years of experience and TBH anybody telling me that he can get fish that have been exclusively fed on bloodworm to be feeding on granules almost exclusively makes me wonder:
-why would you buy these fish in the first place? They are prone to carrying disease and we are back to step one and start throwing medications at them when it could have easily been avoided by proper husbandry. Let me put this to you in this way. What would you rather eat. Fish that have been dosed with pp and antibiotics or wildcaught fish? The answer seems obvious to me. Bloodworm are like Mars bars. Tastes nice (in a fishy way) but no nutritional value. Discus require high protein diets to grow. There's hardly any in bloodworm
-top breeders and people who have discus for years on end all concur that it's hard to wean a discus of bloodworm and you still have told us how you got yours to feed on granules instantly.

And I would appreciate it if you could lay off the base language. no need for insults here

[samir]

discus are not hard to wean off anything whether its blood worms or live food. all they do is eat. If you can't do it that doesn't mean nobody can. A wild fish that looks like it hasn't eaten in a month can start eating granules within a day, bloodworm fed fish are a walk in the park. :roll:

And I'm about 50 years behind the Asian breeders, imagine what they can do . :P

i do treat new fish with PP, 2mg/l three treatments,three days of metronidazole @ 400-500mg/40l for three days and two days of levimasole. After that they will eat anything as long as the water is right.

[Andrew Soh]

Going through years of fish-troubleshooting experience whether in import division or export division........yet coming out non-wiser.....this is very common...and finger-pointing seems to be the inevitable excuse.

Gentlemen, please understand....
But you wouldn't swallow the soap, would you? ....frshwater fishes don't drink water....so how to ingest soap-water.....and the molecule of soap is too big to be absorbed by the epidermis or the gills.....so please......keep inline...please don't do it just for argument sake.......

Not understanding your problem/ cause leads to wrong conclusion.....
Just have a look at guppys in the shops these days. Their mortality rate is ridiculous because the breeding stock is kept in an artificial environment by adding antibiotics to keep them stable. Their immune system cannot handle normal aquarium conditions. ........I am a professional guppy breeder once and the best in the world...mind you. Won Grand champion in international cocompetition for 4 years consecutively.

Check with the Japanese importers who breeds the best guppy in the world and can guarantee 3 weeks less than 1% mortality.....and you will know who they are talking about.

Mortality of guppy is caused by a protozoan know as 'Tetra Hymena'....also know as 'Guppy Killer'. It is a mass-killer brought into Asian guppy industry from America. No antibiotic can eliminate this parasite because it is not a bacterium.....onlt chemical can. This is where many ignorant importers make mistake by putting in antibiotics during quarantine...which even if you put a ton...it will not work.

I may be the only one...believe it or not...who can take out the parasite from the system or the fish and put it back to the Guppy at will......

So, it is not the antibiotics or the drugs or chemicals that kill the guppy...it is the parasite 'Tetra Hymena' (go google and search for the word...and you will realise that only a few in this world can solve this problem. As far as I know, I am the only..... :wink: ...other can only suppress...

Just to let you know, Singapore doesn't have blackworms because it needs slightly cold water to thrive. Blackworms are bred in Australia.


How do you keep a low pathogen count in your tanks. Simple, good husbandry. Regular waterchanges and watch what you feed them. Worked for me for decades. ....o.k.lor....you are the best in your own rights....congrats.....but that doesn't mean that yours is the only right way and that doesn't mean that doing prophylactic treatment is wrong. Try keeping 100 Guppys in your beautiful, well-maintained tank and with the right food......and see how they die...... :wink:

Your discus is adapting to your ways but discus hatcheries of different sizes have different magnitude of problems and influences. Whatever each individual feels is right for their discus...go ahead.....when you reach my hatchery size of more than 1000 discus tanks and have succesfully handled it for 5 years without problem....then tell me prophylactic treatment and treatment with antibiotics are wrong practices.


Bare bottom tanks are not my thing.....this is because you are not a commercial breeder....you will choose bare bottom if you are in discus business.


do treat new fish with PP, 2mg/l three treatments,three days of metronidazole @ 400-500mg/40l for three days and two days of levimasole. .....that's the way to go, Samir...good for you...save your investment....I am with you :wink:

Take care buds,
Andrew :wink:

[apistodiscus]

@Andrew,
I don't doubt your capabilities as either a fishkeeper or breeder but you are not comparing like with like.
None of the hobbyists here has a thousand tanks, however, enough of us have bred fish to the level where we can sell a couple of hundred on every year. And yes, I do breed them in 50*50*50cm bare bottom cubes because it is easier to keep these clean and remove any uneaten food easily. However, before I sell any fish on, I will have had them in a planted tank for at least a month to bring their immune system on.

You don't treat protazoa with antibiotics? Remind me, what's the common advice to treat flagelattes? Metrodizanole. Protazoa-Antibiotic....

Incidentially, I used to keep guppies back in the early 70s. That's the way everybody started out back then. I had tanks full of them and they were as tough as old boots. My LFS gets Guppys in from Singapore and an evil look will kill them.
Overbred and kept in too clean an environment. Mass production is not good for any animal. I'd rather pay more for my fish than buy low quality mass produced fish. Let me guess, your Japanese importer charges more for his fish than the ones available from local breeders?

Tetrahymena is a non-pathogenic ciliate protozoa and is used in biochemistry to analyze enzymatic activities if I recall from my Biochem lectures back in college. Here's a good read: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041

There you will find the following

Tetrahymena
Tetrahymena is a protozoan commonly found living in organic debris at the bottom of an aquarium or vat. Tetrahymena is a teardrop-shaped ciliate ( Figure 4 ) that moves along the outside of the host. The presence of Tetrahymena on the body surface in low numbers (less than five organisms per low power field) is probably not significant. It is commonly found on dead material and is associated with high organic loads. Therefore, observing Tetrahymena on fish, which have been on the tank bottom, does not imply the parasite is the primary cause of death. One treatment of a chemical listed in Table 1 should be adequate for control.

Which leads me to the conclusion that my point of good husbandry seems to make perfect sense. Low organic load (don't overstock, do regular waterchanges)=healthy fish.

Just food for thought. Not everybody has a thousand tanks...

[samir]

I'll just shut up or nana will bring out the wooden spoon

[Andrew Soh]

Ha!ha!ha!


And yes, I do breed them in 50*50*50cm bare bottom cubes because it is easier to keep these clean and remove any uneaten food easily. However, before I sell any fish on, I will have had them in a planted tank for at least a month to bring their immune system on. .......I wouldn't say I would agree with your method...but great! ...if it works for you...you are not wrong......


Tetrahymena is a non-pathogenic ciliate protozoa and is used in biochemistry to analyze enzymatic activities if I recall from my Biochem lectures back in college......ha!ha!ha!....you are definitely reading a write-up by a guy who study tetra hymena for a totally different purpose. Do you know that there are scientist researching on Tetra hymena as food for foodfish fry?....small organisms can be both pest and food.....and surprisingly....tetra hymena can be a minute food for discus fry too because they cannot penetrate the tissue of discus...big or small...........and it so happened that it is a pathogen to guppy...really...do try to keep 100 guppy now and see whether your good control can prevent mortality.....please read more article on tetra hymena related to guppy.

Further to that...yes, tetra hymena are fre-swimmers and they can survive without host...a common knowledge..and the only few fishes they invade are guppy and neon tetra.....read more....


Which leads me to the conclusion that my point of good husbandry seems to make perfect sense. Low organic load (don't overstock, do regular waterchanges)=healthy fish. ....really...do keep some guppy....thank you......

Also, please.....don't insult any country's produce...it's not nice.....Not every country is bad as a whole. Your LFS had lousy fishes because they want cheap.....and I don't remember shipping my guppy to Ireland.....

You are right in your own ways...so that's great.....so be it...

Andrew :wink:

[apistodiscus]

Ok, let's get a few things straight here:
-My LFS does not buy them from that source anymore. They are coming in from Sri Lanka (I think) now and they are a hell lot better and he hasn't put up prices since he changed over so I would imagine that there arent't any price differences.
-I don't want to sound that all produce of Singapore is bad. Just think that some of the fish that come out of Singapore are poor. Never mind Flowerhorn, parrot fish, balloon rams, mollies, etc. which are morally deplorable to say the least. I have seen some of the Aquarama pictures and is frightening to see where the trends seem to go. I don't mind discus that look like giant jellybabies. I wouldn't buy them but colours are personal taste and the fish don't seem to suffer.
But don't get me started on dyed fish.

I don't know if you ever had the chance to have a look at the Stendker. His stocking density is as high as any commercial breeder I have ever seen but I have never heard him talking about the use of medications as you advocate them. Have a look at here http://lds80-86-91-45.webperoni.de/forum/topic.php?id=694& to see his set-up. Unfortunately you can't see the little water pipe above each tank that drops fresh water into each tank constantly.

[kikoman]

btw kikoman how is the fish doing ???

:wave2 woOw thanks samir for asking... my discus is doin great!!! their eating now their beefheart I made.... :)

But theres one NEW problem... One of my Marlboro??? or Melons??? i dunno one of the discus on my pix is having a prob. hehehe.. he doesn't wanna eat anything and he has slime coming out of his gils??? what do u think is the prob? and is there anything that I could do? help... :shock:

GUYZ CHILL OUT!!! THANKS!!! :book

[Andrew Soh]

My LFS does not buy them from that source anymore. They are coming in from Sri Lanka (I think) now and they are a **** lot better and he hasn't put up prices since he changed over so I would imagine that there arent't any price differences.
-I don't want to sound that all produce of Singapore is bad. Just think that some of the fish that come out of Singapore are poor. Never mind Flowerhorn, parrot fish, balloon rams, mollies, etc. which are morally deplorable to say the least. I have seen some of the Aquarama pictures and is frightening to see where the trends seem to go. I don't mind discus that look like giant jellybabies. I wouldn't buy them but colours are personal taste and the fish don't seem to suffer.
But don't get me started on dyed fish.

I don't know if you ever had the chance to have a look at the Stendker. His stocking density is as high as any commercial breeder I have ever seen but I have never heard him talking about the use of medications as you advocate them. Have a look at here http://lds80-86-91-45.webperoni.de/forum/topic.php?id=694& to see his set-up. Unfortunately you can't see the little water pipe above each tank that drops fresh water into each tank constantly.

O.K. Enough is enough..... for me....these postings are running out of thread. Sorry administrator......got carried away...for all...trying to help...

As for Stendker.....I don't know him well ...not personally....I believe he is a great breeder and very good at what he is doing...from the global recognition he got.....so...no comment....and DON'T TRY TO PULL HIM IN..... :x

Unless I am invited to stay in a breeder's hatchery for a year or two..... I would not stand by any hearsay....even if I am the breeder's customer...or even his brother.

Goodnight and take care,
Andrew :wink:

[samir]

ah good at least the fish got better,

[Merrilyn]

We encourage lively debate here. Whenever experienced and intelligent fishkeepers come together, we are bound to have differing opinions.

All I ask is that you keep it polite, no personal or racist comments please, and please respect the other point of view, even if you don't agree with it.

Thankyou, there is a lot of good information coming out of this thread.

[Andrew Soh]

Thank you, Merrilyn :)


Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[taksan]

And probably the reason why I only get wild fish or those from breeders in the Czech Republic or Germany

Wild fish I hope ....

[kikoman]

thanks to everyone but I have another question...
One of my melon discus is having slime coming out of his gills and he keeps on scratching himself to the ornaments as if he was so itchy

[apistodiscus]

My guess would be gill flukes. Flubenol 15 or daryctol is good for that

[kikoman]

woOw everyone is GREAT now... I have no probs w/ my discus! their doin great!

[godprint]

hi guys,

u talk about using PP,

could u guys kindly discuss the different ways of using PP??

thanks!~

[ILLUSN]

Godprint try this thread fo PP info

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14585