Do you bubble off CO2 at night with an air stone

[Scotty Bils]

Due to some poor plant growth, the worst I have had ever I have been “picking some brains” at my LFS’s.

Speaking to my LFS this week the bloke I spoke to was pretty adamant that I should be bubbling off CO2 at night with an air stone.

Currently I have an automatic CO2 system that I let run 24 / 7 . That is I do not have the magnetic valve on a timer to turn off at night.

What has been suggested to me (and also years before) that I –

1. Set my magnetic valve on a auto timer so it goes off at the same time as my lights
2. Set up an air stone in the tank so that it comes on automatically when the lights go off and turns off when the lights come on.

This makes sense to me as plants exhale CO2 at night and the bubbles / O2 would be good for the fish and water movement.

What I am concerned with is a possible PH spike at night harming my Discus…..What are your thoughts and what are you guys doing around this???? Your feedback appreciated.

Cheers
Scott.
:)

[clinny_d]

hey scotty
im only really new at discus,(2 months) but i leave my diy co2 (YEAH GO DIY!!!) on at night, due to if i turn it off it will pressurize. the ph doesnt change all that much for mine tho.
sorry i couldnt help anymore
cheers

[Th0mas]

Although the concept seems harmless to the fish, I really don't think displacing the CO2 after light out is going to be that beneficial to plant growth as they will not photosynthesize during the darker hours so don't expect them to grow.

How many hours does the light run during the day? And how much light? What's the wattage of light, size of tank, etc. And most importantly do you feed your plant (fertiliser)?

[fish_r]

at the moment my pressurized Co2 runs 24/7 "only cause my solenoid is crap" so in this instance as soon as my lights go off an airstone comes on to dissipate the Co2 then when the lights come on my airstone is set to shut off. with a working solenoid i would have it on a timer so it switches the Co2 off when the lights go off and switching Co2 on when the lights come on.

even better if u can afford it get a pH controller to connect to ur solenoid to control ur pH and it will shut off and turn on the Co2 to keep ur pH stable.

as we all know discus dont like pH fluctuations so IMO DIY Co2 isnt good for discus cause of the pH fluctuations it gives.

if u have stem plants, make sure u use plant tabs cause u will notice good growth using them and keep ur fert regime constant...

[fishgeek]

what is your priority planst or fish?

plants need
*sufficent light
*carbon at aconstant and steady level of approximately 25-30mg/l as others have siad this can only be used by the plants when the lights are on, so solenoid on one hou before lights allows carbon to be in water when plants want it
plants use it and keep levels from elevating , the carbon turned off 1 hr before lights and planst use rest up
*macronutrients which are mainly NitrogenPhosphate and Kpotassium, i'm sure you would find it strang adding nitrate to your tank, it maybe needed if other factors were not groth limiting
*micronutrients or trace elemnets

so if you have 2wpg or more and your carbon levels in the rage above
you are needing to sort out other nutrient deficencies
if your light is lower add more
if you dont know what your carbon levels are you need to measure it


andrew

[anti-generic]

i leave mine on 24/7. if you are worried about PH fluctuations, put a bag of shell grit in your filter and set your timer to switch on the air stone for a few hours during the night.
i guess it also depends on how much co2 you are dosing.

Eric

[Scotty Bils]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

Just to clarify I do have my CO2 connected to an electrode which measures the PH and turns it on and off to stabalise the PH.

Fishgeek& Fish_R, would you recommend that I set my magnetic valve to turn on or activated 1 hour before lights on and then deactivate the CO2 by turning off the valve 1 hour before lights off?

I do like the idea of turning on and off the CO2, that is to activate it when it is really required and deactivated when not, but what sort of PH spike am I putting my Discus at risk of if any? I don’t want to have to get up at 3am to check!! I am not even sure if the CO2 comes on during at night but if it does it currently does not bother the discus with CO2 in the water but do appreciate that it is waster CO2 at night – plant wise that is.

FYI –

PH – 6.7
KH - 7
Temperature – 30 to 32
Ammonia – 0
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 0
Fe – 0.05 mg/l or less (I am increasing this to 0.15mg/l)

4 x 54w T5 Fluorescent tubes running 12 hours.

No ferts other than Dupla Fe drops daily.

Cheers again,

Scott

[fish_r]

hey Scotty if u have a pH controller u shouldnt have to put ur solenoid on a timer it will switch the Co2 on or off to keep ur pH stable. just keep an eye on ur fish to see how hard there breathing if they are breathing heavy u might need to add an airstone when the lights are off. if u can get away with out using an airstone and ur fish are breathing normally all the better.

u might want to think about using something other than dupla drops cause they only cover macro's. i use a dry ferts mix to cover the micro's and dupla drops to cover the macro's. IE: i dose micro's one day them macro's the next and so on. and root tabs are a good idea too.

[Scotty Bils]

What are some good ferts to cover off my micros then? Seachem Flourish?

Any reccomendations?

Thanks again,

Cheers
Scott

[fishgeek]

i use http://www.chempak.co.uk/product4.html for my trace elements, scroll down

is an english company , basically terrestrial fertiliser seems emminently cheaper than the aquarium variety
obviously you need to avoid nitrogen/ammonia so with trace elements this is not an issue, read the side of the box

i paid 5£ a year ago and am only 1/3rd the way through this 500gram box

with your pristine water i would guess nitrogen is your most likely limiting factor in plant growth
ideally you should be measuring your pH to see you are maintaing steady carbon levels for the plants, you have a pH contrller to do that, leave it running, forgot about the airstone

what i would imagine is happening is the lights turn on > the planst stat photosynthesising> the carbon in water level is utilised> the pH rises> the probe activates the C02 tank> you get a balance> the lights turn off >the plnats start respiring > the C02 levels increase> the pH drops >the probe turns CO2 ank off anyway

or something in that fashion
i just run a solenoid on day, off night, i would leave yours as it is though

if nitrate is alwasy zero adding KNO3 may help, strange as adding nitrate to your tank may sound, if you are uncomfortable with it in the water column then maybe needs to be in root tabs beneath the substrate.. though levels in root tabs are less controllable

andrew

[fish_r]

if u google a place called "simplegrow" "in Sydney" they do a fert mix called Podron pond trace elliments and thats what i and a few others locally are using along with dupla drops. but not sure if u can buy small quantities or not. u might be lucky and talk them into sending u a kilo which will last for yonks. i got mine in a bulk buy on another forum where we got 10kgs together and it was distributed
in 500gm and 1kg pkts. if u do get it the mix is 10grams per 500mls of distilled water and i'm using 15mls of the mix every second day, but i have 3.5 wpg of lighting. for lower light i would start with 5-10ml every second day and dupla drops when u dont dose the mix...

[Blybo]

I set up my diy co2 as per flippers excellent instructions but maybe my tank is more heavily stocked or has less plants producing O2 during the day.

Anyhoo, it is set up to turn the diffuser off when my lights go off so that the co2 harmlessly bubbles off to the surface. First morning I see all my fish breathing hard so I put my spray bar above the water line straight away to get more O2 into the water. I was too late, 1 of my 2 beautiful Fly Creek rainbows didn't make it through the day :cry: .

I have now made a couple of changes to my set up. I've added a bit of water to my "coke bottle yeast filter" to make it act as a bubble counter as my mix was reacting too fast. I've also put a adjustable valve on the line into the bubble counter to adjust the flow (the reactor bottle itself has a pressure release valve so this is a safe modification). Most importantly I've put an air stone on a timer to come on when the lights are out. This morning I had no gasping fish but my CO2 has virtually stopped.

Could 2 diy mixes of 3 cups luke warm water, 3 cups raw sugar, 1/2 teaspoon yeast and 1/2 teaspoon bi carb of soda run out in 24 hours? It was running too rich for the diffuser to cope :oops:

[fishgeek]

when running co2 in a diy fashion, it may be advisable to have 3 reactors, running to a drip chanber , and then onto a tank

the 3 reactors can be started on different days to spread there peak production

keepeing them too hot may have some bearing on why they brewed so quickyly

andrew

[Tommo]

Just A Question Here , As I Would Like To Know , Does Anyone Check There O2 Levels In There Tank ?

Because If You Are Pumping Co2 Into A Tank And The Filter Does Not Create Enough Surface Movement And You Plants Are Not Photosynthesizing,Due To What Ever , Then Technically You Are Starving The Fish Of O2 .

Also Some People Think, That To Lower The P.H To What Ever Level, All They Need To Do Is Just Increase The Co2.This Is Not True.You Are Only Starving The Fish Of O2"Sorry To Many People Have Asked Me This"


Scotty Bils The Best Place For Chelated Micro Nutrients, Is Dave From Aqua Green.
I Am Sure They Are a Sponsor!
Also Check You P.H Over 2 Nights, And If Your K.H Is At 7, And The P.H Swing Is Not That Large. And Your Happy With The Reading ,From Day Time Reading To Night Time Reading . All You Have To Do Is Monitor Your K.H. To Make Sure It Does Not Change !

But I Turn My Co2 Off At Night, Even Though I Have A P.H Controller. As My Swing Is Only .2 Of A Reading Between Day And Night And It Has Not Hurt The Fish So Far !And My K.H Reading Is 6

Cheers Tommo

[Scotty Bils]

Cheers for that guys, appreciated.

I have turned things around with my tank and now have too many plants I am going to the LFS to get some credit!! Oooh yeah thats better!!

Regards
Scott

[fish_r]

good to hear Scotthttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/KharmaKazi/thumb.gif

[tzwms]

Just one point of correction: Bubbling in CO2 by itself does not starve the fish by reducing the amount of O2. The two gases dissolve in the water independent of one another. Bubbling in CO2 will reduce the pH and if done properly will not cause other problems such as gasping fish. The gasping is a ressult of either the pH going too low or the inability of the fish to get the CO2 out of thier bodies because of the high concentration of CO2 in the water.

[Tommo]

Hi tzwms...... So What Your Saying Is, That If I Get A Bucket Of Water And Test The O2 Level Then Inject A Large Amount Of CO2 The O2 Level Will Still Be The Same ?

Cheers Tommo.

[tzwms]

Tommo,
Yes, assuming that the CO2 is added such that it is not bubbling to the surface of the water. You can add a lot of CO2 because of its abiity to combine with the water to form carbonic acid, which is why the pH drops. the O2 is still there, but the fish has trouble releasing the CO2 across the blood/water interface of the gills because there is so much in the water (and because the pH may have dropped causing other problems for the fish). It is the build up of CO2 in the fish's system that causes distress, not the lack of O2 in the water. The same mechanism works in your body; it is the increase in CO2 that causes your heart rate to go up when you exercise, not a decrease in O2.

BTW, another way to set up a CO2/air supply system is to use the pH probe to turn on the air supply (diffuser) when the pH hits a certain lower level. The diffuser then increases the water/air interface at the surface, allowing the CO2 to dissapate. Most of the pH meter/controllers allow you to set upper and lower limits. You can bubble in the CO2 a bit faster (still needs to be visually monitored on a daily basis) and still maintain the pH at+-0.1 of where you want it.

[Davo]

I used to turn on a air pump at night on my tank when the C02 turned off but now I don't and the discus are fine.

Dave.

[Tommo]

Your Right tzwms .......

Cheers Tommo

[tzwms]

Hope it helps. :D :D :D :D