Royal blue turquiose discus pair

[madasa]

Hi

Im really concerned about the female of this pair. A lot of the time she is very dark and I rarely see her eating. Recently she had a marble like swelling of her abdo which has now gone, but something isnt right. She is quite able to hold herself in the water but seems to choose 45 degree lateral tilts. have not observed faeces.

The male also tilts from time to time.

Tank - Cube of 140 litres

Filtration - 5 times turnover using cannister and internal

Some wood to promote softness

Temp - 30

Airstone present

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrates < 5ppm

PH 6.2

WC schedule - minimum 30% every 2 - 3 days with gravel vac

I use discus geoliquid and salt at present due to my concern for her. Water is conditioned prior to replacement.

Help please

Pete

[shannon]

Hey mate
If it was my fish i would be putting her in a hospital tank and giving her a bath in pp and worming her at the same time with Big-l :) :)

[Merrilyn]

I'm inclined to agree with shannon.

I think it's time to worm her for roundworm and threadworm. You'll find a number of very good articles on Sykes Big L pig and poultry wormer. Your pet shop is unlikely to carry it, you need to go to a feed and grain merchant to find it.

It's very safe, and very effective.

[madasa]

Thankyou guys - fingers crossed.

Other discus also showing early signs of the same behaviour

[samir]

worm all your fish together. if you drop ph further to 5.5 it may perk them up a bit.

[madasa]

I really appreciate the replies thus far - thankyou.

I am now going to make you all horrified by the actions which I performed last night ...

I have treated the whole tank with a malachite green and methyl blue solution to cover velvet, whitespot and fungus - though 99.9% certain none of these exist / ed, however I have found copper sulphate an extremely useful adjunctive therapy when treating many things.

I also treated with metronidazole at 250mg per 10litres to cover hexamita - ??possible early lateral indications of HITH - unlikely

Also - amoxycillin at 250mg per 10gallons to cover other possible bacterial causes

Increased heat to 32

Added extra filtration with air

NOW YOU MIGHT WANT TO SIT DOWN :shock: if you aren't already!

Wormed with *cough cough* cat worming treatment (yes you heard right).

NOW MIGHT BE THE TIME TO LIE DOWN

Prior to the above I decompressed the marble sized area with a clean needle and squeezed air / liquid from the area.

Before any of the above she was lying on her side on the bare tank bottom - black as - and I had to agitate her quite a lot before she darted away. The male was also starting to look worse. This is why I went in hard with a medley of treatments and do not recommend this to anyone with little experience or if there are other options available. I felt it was a do or die situation and wasnt sure about any possible real causes for the way she was as it had been quite insiduous and then she 'crashed'.

So how are they 24hrs later ...

He looks back to his normal self and has taken food - good colour though still not as interactive as before.

She is in an upright position and has been in full colour though when i observed 10 mins ago was dark again - her colour is alternating. I also observed what appeared to be a white worm like thing being passed anally earlier in the day - it wasnt like the faeces associated with intgernal hexamita infection.

PLAN

Feed TDS and lightly

In 24 hrs - redose with one final amoxycillin

In 36 hrs - 30% water change. Pull the PH back down below 6.0, decrease temp to 30.

Observe, observe, observe ...

Last night was a long one and I wasnt optimistic when I awoke this morning and delayed going outside because I was scared what I might find. I neednt have been as there was definate improvement. However its still early doors.

I know a lot of you will be shocked by what are drastic actions ... believe me I have been keeping fish a long time and disease is an interest of mine. I would not have done the above medley had I felt other choices were open to me.

I look forward to hearing your comments.

[shannon]

WOW
That's all i have to say,I hope the treatment works :o :o

[madasa]

Well I'll be honest I expected some more comments than I gotin the forms of criticism or shock statements.

Both doing well - third and last dose of amoxycillin yesterday and having a 30% WC and vacuum this morning. ??no more treatment unless more problems occur - think its probably best to see if she holds up without medication, though there will be methyl blue and malachite green in the water which will be weaned out.

[samir]

Well I'll be honest I expected some more comments than I gotin the forms of criticism or shock statements.

Both doing well - third and last dose of amoxycillin yesterday and having a 30% WC and vacuum this morning. ??no more treatment unless more problems occur - think its probably best to see if she holds up without medication, though there will be methyl blue and malachite green in the water which will be weaned out.

amoxy dose is 1.2 - 3.6 grams/lb, 10 days in feed.

[ILLUSN]

Amoxy works well and i've used it many times before. I usually use it with stretomyacin (for gram negative bacteria) but i only use it in food (500 mg/100g) fed for a week. it will compleately wipe out any biofiltration you have if used in the water column of the tank.

Hence why i dont suggest other people use it.

[fishgeek]

the theory is that most fish pathogens are gram negative and so streptomycin is more likely the better medication

my lfs uses amoxy for some particular issue that say they see in guppies

otherwsie in theory it isnt supposed to be much use, i have combined it with metro in feed before ..

andrew

[madasa]

Well I'll be honest I expected some more comments than I gotin the forms of criticism or shock statements.

Both doing well - third and last dose of amoxycillin yesterday and having a 30% WC and vacuum this morning. ??no more treatment unless more problems occur - think its probably best to see if she holds up without medication, though there will be methyl blue and malachite green in the water which will be weaned out.

amoxy dose is 1.2 - 3.6 grams/lb, 10 days in feed.

250mg per 10G over 3 days is as effective as it is going to be with the option to redose. Combined with malachite green and methylene blue or copper sulphate i have found the combo very effective.

I agree with you Andrew that most fish pathogens are gram negative and streptomycin would be the drug of choice - but if its not to hand then one uses ones experience and knowledge with what is available.

Cheers

Pete

[samir]

refer to this
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA084

[ILLUSN]

christ you find some good stuff Samir

[madasa]

You remain a man of few words and tunnelled opinions Samir (which I sayt lightly with no offence intened) LOL.

The article was good if not frustratingly brief at times, though I enjoyed reading it. What it, like all papers, often fails to factor in is the individual fishkeepers experience which counts for much.

They continue to do well.

[Merrilyn]

I haven't been saying anything madasa because I'm in shock at what you have been using.

I do hope you're not a smoker mate because if you light a match near that tank it will explode.

The combination of copper sulphate and malachite green is a pretty deadly cocktail.

I've got no issues with combining antibiotics or even with piercing the side of the fish to release fluid and air, but mixing chemicals is dangerous, really dangerous and I really can't condone it.

I'm glad your fish have recovered, although with that combination, I doubt they will ever be able to breed again.

[madasa]

My apols - I actually meant to say that it was malachite green and methyl blue that I used and I have editted my initial post accordingly. I have not used copper sulphate in this instance - cross my heart (confusion on my part) - Im a bit dopey @ times but not that dopey LOL. I would imagine I headed south in peoples estimations when they saw that and I thank you Merrilyn for pointing it out.

Indeed I am a smoker :cry:

I also keeping fronties and use the needle when I have dealt with float in the past.

I have also used the needle as a last resort in bloat with salt treatment to reduce / prevent infection issues.

Would be interested in further comments.

Regards

Pete

[Merrilyn]

Glad we got that sorted Pete :P

I really did think you had more knowledge than to mix chemicals. Glad it was just due to a typing error.

How are your fish looking today ?

[madasa]

Thanks Merrilyn.

The girl looks as if she may be relapsing slightly - going to keep a firm eye on her.

Wish me luck!

May have to redose.

Pete

[Merrilyn]

All the best with her Pete.

Hope she recovers.

[madasa]

I stopped the treatment and she was doing good and then plummeted - presumably when the remnants of the therapy had been metabolized out of her body. Restarted it immediately but was too late and I feel sick as a dog - should have continued with the therapy for a bit longer.

I performed a brief autopsy and squeezed some faeces from her - white, stringy and transluscent - hexamita ... I never saw her faeces when treating her and as it happens didnt have any metro left anyway.

The male is fine and I will put him in with my marlboro reds. All the conditions in that tank are the same and he is healthy and eating, swimming, interactive, etc. Faeces - normal. Might get them going a bit quicker.

Am I wise to add him to the reds given I am happy as to his health or will it potentially affect the reds breeding potential negatively?

[Merrilyn]

So sorry to hear that Pete.

For a long time I have held the belief that hex is lying dormant in most discus. Their own immune system naturally keeps it under control. But as soon as there is some form of stress, and being moved from a shop tank, and transported home to another tank is enough to cause stress in some fish, the immune system become weakened and hex flourishes.

Now this is my own opinion, after years of observation. I'm certainly not a vet, like our friend fishgeek, so there's no scientific evidence behind that theory, but I've seen it happen a lot.

To diagnose, you really need to see the white jelly like droppings, otherwise it could be a hundred and one other causes. And I guess that's not even a definitive diagnoses on it's own, but it often turns out to be the problem.

Hope you have better luck with the reds.

[madasa]

Thankyou Merrilyn.

What is your opinion regarding adding the male in with the reds - he is healthy as. Might it affect the potential breeding of the reds negatively?

Pete

[Merrilyn]

Well I've certainly done it in the past.

It works when you have a pair who habitually eat eggs or fry. Makes better parents of them and they learn to guard their eggs rather than eat them. Obviously you have to watch carefully in case the spare male is getting the worst of it, but it can be very successful.

Now, putting the male turk in with the red pair could have a very positive effect, cement the pair bond, and encourage them to breed.

It could also go the other way, with the female choosing the turk male over her current mate, in which case there could be a lot of fighting and no breeding.

I think only time will tell.

I'd do it, and see what happens, but make sure it's at a time when you can check the tanks several times a day. We don't want any of them badly injured.

[fishgeek]

For a long time I have held the belief that hex is lying dormant in most discus. Their own immune system naturally keeps it under control. But as soon as there is some form of stress, and being moved from a shop tank, and transported home to another tank is enough to cause stress in some fish, the immune system become weakened and hex flourishes.

Now this is my own opinion, after years of observation. I'm certainly not a vet, like our friend fishgeek, so there's no scientific evidence behind that theory, but I've seen it happen a lot.



spot on

protoza have been cultured from fish that do not have signs of HITH or are healthy and not cultured from fish that are showing signs of HITH...
i know we are not talking about HITH ,
protozoa are generally debilitating rather than fatal, in the species i treat anyway, and i would imagine so in fish aswell

so i would guess the stress/intiator plus a simple infection gastrointestinal infection combing are the issue

andrew

[madasa]

Thanks heaps all of you - this dicus thing is still very new to me but with fronties, africans and some americans Im not too short of some IQ so you are always welcome to ask me things if I can help.

Like you Merrilyn I think hexamita and lymphocytosis lies dormant in ALL fish.

Fishgeek - may I ask what part of London you are from as I migrasted here to WA in Sept 2003 from Brighton.

Re: the discus. When I first added the male turquiose there was a smidge of argy bargy and then things settled. The turquoise would be the biggest of the three and at first it looked like he and the female marlboro were getting on better than they ought to. However both reds are now together and none seem bothered by each other.

Thanks again

Pete

[samir]

Fishgeek - may I ask what part of London you are from as I migrasted here to WA in Sept 2003 from Brighton.


ah that explains it :P

[madasa]

Fishgeek - may I ask what part of London you are from as I migrasted here to WA in Sept 2003 from Brighton.


ah that explains it :P

I dont follow you ... explain please

[fishgeek]

i'm from napier new zealand! schooled in brisbane australia and now working in south london

stil dreaming of a return to home(australia) in the not too distant future

[madasa]

South London eh - which area?

[fishgeek]

i prefer to not be more specific on the internet

[madasa]

Fair enough - just thought you might be able to broadly say ... i.e. on the A23 before / past croydon.

Either way, London is a great place.

Regards

Pete