thanks for the support

[DiscusWorld]

Hi everyone, Since our article on Discus in the Aquarium Keeper Australia Magazine, we have been inundated with phone calls from well wishers both from retailers and the public alike. I would just like to say thank you for all the support the scale of wish was totally unexpected. Our warmest thanks.

Philip from Discus World Australia

[samir]

ah so it was your article. i was thinking of mentioning it on the forum. I've been keeping my fish at similar ph's to your's for the past 6 months, mid to low 5's with very good results. The recent breeding pairs are at around 4.5.
welcome to the forum, feels good to know that I'm not crazy :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL

[DiscusWorld]

Hi Simir, You know it could be we are just both crazy? LOL. In my opinion people have so much trouble with discus because of their high ph. We never have to treat external parasites with medication as none proliferate well at a low ph. We too drop the ph to 4.5 to induce fish to pair off. Most spawns will be successful down to 4. A ph of 2 seems to be the bottom survival limit,strangely red based discus tolerate lower ph more comfortably than blues. Heckles usually spawn unsuccessfully or the young die much above 4.8. I have two friends who have successfully bred Altum Angels both tell me the ph must never go above 5. or Altums can sicken and never breed successfully,hopefully we can spread the word.

Philip, Discus World Australia

[Merrilyn]

Welcome to the forum Philip.

Did you say breeding altums and breeding heckels ????????????

Mate I'm all ears. I'll listen to anything you have to say.

[samir]

I haven't tried 4 but I'll do it for the next pair.

I have my heckels at 4 atm, courtesy a ph crash. they seemed extra happy a couple of days ago and a couple were shimmering and bowing. checked the ph and it had crashed to 3.8 from around 6 :shock:

[ILLUSN]

checked the ph and it had crashed to 3.8 from around 6

how'd that happen?????????

[DiscusWorld]

Hi Merrilyn and Samir, 4 is the bottom end of the PH scale for successful breeding, after peer bonding has been achieved at 4.5 we raise the Ph to 5 for actual breeding. Heckels are a different story. 4 would be fine for them, watch for PH crashes at 4, we use round pieces of coral, placed in the tank to prevent it, with a little mucking around you'll soon find out how much to use. Heckels and their fry are extremely sensitive to bacteria and parasites at a PH of 4 most problems are averted, you never know you may have babies before u no it, just make sure that when you do water changes the temperature and PH of the incoming water is exact or fry mortalities will occur. A UV is not without its place. Heckels are no harder than any other discus to breed when parameters are correct the biggest problem is selling them. We no longer breed Heckels for that reason.

Merrilyn, where to start, this could take a book to explain basically altums have trouble adapting to bacterial infection, their resistance is extremely low. Placed in a high PH fatalities usually occur, particularly if mixed with a previously infected fish, at a PH between 4 and 5 most bacterial infections subside. Using a small flash light each day check any clear fins for cloudy appearance, once spotted drop PH to 4. Temperature 29 C to induce breeding. Create a dry season approach, that is no water changes and allow PH to drop slowly. Use storms to your advantage, the drop in barometric pressure combined with a large water change and a drop in temperature will usually initiate a spawn. If possible use rain water for the water change. Breeders must be old enough and the tank large enough. The spawnings i know of were conducted in an 8x3x3 and a 4x2x2. Mangrove tree roots supply the best spawning media. If tap water must be used place about an eighth of a teaspoon of Potassium Permanganate in 500L of water for 24 hours to oxidize any organic matter. Don't use water ager first as it neutralise's the Potassium Permanganate, after 24 hours add 20mL of 3% hydrogen Peroxide, this will change the water from pink to clear, add Hydrochloric acid to adjust PH then using a peat bomb or the like filter for twelve hours and adjust temperature before use. It seems a lot of trouble to go to, but once set up is easy and cost effective. All our water is treated this way and we obtain better results than we were using RO water. Food: when trying to initiate spawning feed live food only, brine shrimp, small earth worms, black worms (only if you cultivate your own or it could lead to heavy metal poisoning). A favorite is young fresh water shrimp. These can be cultivated in an old bath tub and fed on flake food. Unfortunately live mosquito larvae I'm told is the best spawning inducer however they are not without their problems and can even introduce fish MB. Try soaking the mosquito larvae in a formalin or hydrogen peroxide bath before feeding. If my info isn't clear just let me know.

[Davo]

Regarding the lowering of the PH to 4-5, how do you lower it and keep it there? I have a planted tank with CO2 and 220w of lighting, will this cause a problem?

Thanks,
Dave.

[ILLUSN]

I dont think your plants will like the low ph

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for the info Philip :P

My altums are only 12 months old, but living in a 10 x 2 x 2.6 tank, so I'm hoping they will find it to their liking and decide to spawn once mature.

Would you ask your mates how old their fish were when the spawned, and how did they manage separating them from the colony.

Did they remove the eggs and artificially hatch them.

And last of all, where did the fry go, have they still got them or did they sell them.

Altum spawning is such an unusual occurance, the only person I know who is turning out quantities of altums is in Germany, and the fry command such a high price, they never get shipped to Australia. The American and Japanese markets snap them up at very high prices and he can't keep up with the demand. He told us he has never supplied fish to Australia and has no plans to in the near future.

Now, if we could get our hands on some locally bred altums, that would be fantastic.

Any info or photos your mates are willing to share will be greatly appreciated :P

[samir]

Now, if we could get our hands on some locally bred altums, that would be fantastic.


first heckels, now wild altums. How many fish species do I have to breed for you ??? what next Merodontotus tigrinus ? :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL

[taksan]

Now, if we could get our hands on some locally bred altums, that would be fantastic.


first heckels, now wild altums. How many fish species do I have to breed for you ??? what next Merodontotus tigrinus ? :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL


Pims are MY domain Samir

[DiscusWorld]

Hi Davo, we lower our PH by using hydrochloric acid, basically we dont actually drop the PH in the tank but rather the water used for water changes, we just keep adding acid in the tub until the PH stabilizes at 5 then pump it into the tank. Illusn is right your plants wont like it. In nature discus are not found in areas with aquatic plants, only tree roots, but in a PH of 4.5 not many plants will do well, well actually none lol. Co2 and discus are not good bed friends, small ones tolerate it but large discus usually respond badly unless you have enough plants to totally absorb the Co2 which is unlikely.

Merrilyn, i cant find out reliably how old altums are before they breed. Merv purchased his when they were adults. They were sold as chocolate angels and in his words were very large, he had one spawning and allowed the parents to hatch the eggs, they began to eat the young and he only manged to save 2. All his stock eventually died.

Les managed to raise about 50 to 3-4cm, again he took the young as soon as they became free swimming. He sold a few locally and to Bay Fish im told however local buyers told me they all died about 2 weeks after purchase. Les got out of fish after disease wiped out his entire stock. I know of no one who has succeeded in the true sense of the word ( breeding in large numbers). People are able to get them to spawn but fail on the raising side, fin rot seems to be their achilles heel. we have been collecting research about altums for years, but can't buy any, we recently ordered some from bay fish, apparently they are quite sick and are unable to be sent. believe it or not they placed them in the main system with a PH of 7???? a death sentence for a recently caught wild altum. Actually Gary manager of pet city in Brisbane, i was told had a spawning of altums 3 or 4 years ago, he's a nice bloke and im sure would share info about the age of his breeders if you ring him ( Pet City (07) 3349 2086 ) week days only. Good luck with your breeding program Merrilyn. If we can help in any way let us know.

If anyone knows of any wholesalers who have true altums for sale please let me know.

Philip

[Merrilyn]

Philip, thank you so much for for getting that information.

I really appreciate it.

I'll be happy if they just survive for the next 10 or 15 years, but should they decide to spawn, well ..............stranger things have happened.

I'm currently keeping them at 5.8 but slowly dropping the pH to 4.5 following your advice.

[DiscusWorld]

Hi Merrilyn, we've been talking to a collector of altums in the amazon, he ships mainly to germany and is constantly telling people to keep altums between 4 and 4.8 PH. we contacted some of his clients in germany who told us they have been having some success locally breeding altums, their problem in germany seems to be that their fins do not develop properly, looking more like the common angel fish after captive breeding. We intend to import altums and wild discus from the amazon, apparently we cant import direct, they must be sent to germany or singapore where they are quarantined before being sent to australia, where again they will be quarantined for three weeks. If anyone is interested in the purchase of any please let us know.

Phil

[samir]

you might want to explore getting them via an exporter in the US.