amazon sword

[alan j t]

hi everyone :D
i was wondering if anyone could help and my plants
my amazon are doimg ok BUT the older leaves are going tranparent and slowly dying away
alls thats left are the viens
whenever it happens i just cut it off and a new one sprouts
the plant just gets smaller and smaller
i know theres a defincency i think its potassium
i dont know :?
ive read the article and i guess it could be that
i have ecocomplete and flourite as substrate and i use root tabs plus excel and i use iron
it improved the condition of the plant but not fix it
the plant used to be 18 inches tall now its under six from all the trimmings that were going bad
could someone please assist me in my dilemma
ive read the web site that was posted here already
it helps but i dont want to buy the wrong ferts a plant guru would really be apprieciate thankx

[DIY]

Hi Alan,

what's your tap water source like - soft/hard etc? I have to dose calcium, magnesium & potassium for the plants at each waterchange as tapwater in my location is very soft.

Also you mention iron, but no trace elements? Plants need tiny amounts of trace elements regularly for molybdenum, boron, cobalt etc.

I had similar problems and couldn't work out if it was a magnesium, potassium or possibly a molybdenum deficiency but since adding Trace every other day and the potassium, magnesium & calcium each waterchange the plants are growing like weeds.

I also inject co2 which makes a big difference of course.

[alan j t]

ya i tried the trace but nothing
i asked the lfs and he recommend to add the actin blue bulb or more light
and co2 at least diy yeast
everyother plant is a low light plant and doing well
i always thought the amazon would be relativly the same

[DIY]

If you have a deficiency of ferts and you add more light it will accelerate the problem.

More light = more algae too, so I think before you go down that path you should try getting your ferts sorted out otherwise you'll have even more problems.

Slow growing plants need small amounts of fert, faster growing plants need more. Amazon swords are fairly fast growing so are showing up a deficiency that is not showing up in your slower plants.

Try adding potassium each water change, and trace every day, or every second day.

If your water is very soft then also add calcium & magnesium. Calcium can be found as calcium sulphate (some just buy gypsum) or calcium chloride. Magnesium sulphate is also known as epsom salts. search for "fertilator" in google and you will find a very useful tool to calculate how much to put in. Another way to add calcium & magnesium is to use something like ro-right.

Results wont be seen straight away in a low light non co2 tank so stick with it for 2-3 weeks.

[alan j t]

i have discus in ther with the plants
and i use discus buffer also
so i dont think it would work the calcium stuff
my water comes out of the tap hard then i soften it with discus buffer and peat
i can add potassium and trace
i saw at the lfs they sold equalibrium im not sure if it was for a planted fish tank and if would affect my parameters

[alan j t]

i have discus in ther with the plants
and i use discus buffer also
so i dont think it would work the calcium stuff
my water comes out of the tap hard then i soften it with discus buffer and peat
i can add potassium and trace
i saw at the lfs they sold equalibrium im not sure if it was for a planted fish tank and if would affect my parameters
you think that could work

[ILLUSN]

If your old leaves are dying your plants are defficient in something.
swords are very heavy root feeders, liquid ferts are almost useless for swords.
place 4 root tabs/ clayballs around the base of the plant. if you have them break a jobes stick into 1/4 and place 2 quaters around the roots (i use 16-4-4 houseplant sticks). keep up your light and your co2. add bout 1/2 tsp of chelated iron from bunnings to your tank every 2nd or 3rd night after lights off.
if you still have problems add more potasium to your water. if the new growth shows dark redy/browny horizontal lines across the very joung leaf your doing everything right.

where are you located? might be able to help you out with some ferts.

[alan j t]

ok ill try more root tabs
im from the states so im limited at the lfs's
i dont see clay balls but the lfs always have flourish tabs
i can definatly get potassium next payday of course
should i continue my flourish excel on a daily basis
you said to add iron at night :?:

[ILLUSN]

Yeah if you add iron to your water it will go cloudy for a few hours, add it at night after lights out so you dont notice it. try some jobes sticks first as they supply NPK, also whats your substrate like? if your using plain gravel try growing your sword in a shallow pot with vermiculite, the high CEC helps alot

[gypsy3]

hi...i've got a lot of swords and anubias in my 6x2.when you guys talk about magnesium potassium etc, where do you buy the stuff and what dosage would be ok for my tank? i don't have co2 and the lighting is fairly low level.

[ILLUSN]

with low light and no co2 you dont want to be putting too may fertz into your tank or you'll have algae. if you see yellow clear spots forming on your new leaves add iron chelate (from bunnings) at about 1 teaspoon once a week (i do it after a water change), if you see the same thing in older leaves add a teaspoon of potasium sulphate (from bunnings). if you get yellow leaves with briught green veins add nitrogen (i use jobes sticks imported from the US 12-5-4 NPK).

if your growing amazon swords check the new growth for horizontal red/brown banding, if you see that all is well.

[DiscusWorld]

some of the best dosing in fo can be found in PMDD
pore mans dosing drops http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html
aslo most of this stuff can be brught from prodce of farm supplys its cheap but normaly only comes in 20kg bags and you will only need like 100g so if you have freinds you might be able combine buy or some thing

[alan j t]

sounds good
ill try the jobes sticks first
are those the ones you buy for house plants :?:
is there a certain one you would recommend :?:
and ae they safe for my fish as well as my plants and water :?:

[ILLUSN]

i use the hose plant ones, aything with phosphorus of 5 or below should be fine. cut each stick into 1/4 and use 2 per plant.

[alan j t]

ok i bought them
can i use them on all my plants
like if i cut them into 8ths and each plant gets a piece
like my crypts or anubias or apontogetons would it be okay :idea:
or would it overwhelm the tank with ferts and get a giagantic algea bloom :shock: :shock: :shock:

[ILLUSN]

use quaters, the sticks break up if you cut them too small, 2 per plant will be fine so long as they're in the gravel you wont have any algae problems.

[alan j t]

thanks alot for the advise
the plants seems to be doing good
so do you think adding a t5 light would be a good idea :idea:
im just looking for more flourishing of my plants
i would also bump up my diy co2 with a bubble counter
and more bottles attatched together
its currently hooked up onto my canister inflow
im just worried about algea
right now i dont even have 1wpg so i was think to up to 3wpg
or a little less
and i guess more ferts i just dont know wich ones :?

[ILLUSN]

first increase your co2, then increase your light, then your ferts, you dont want to start adding ferts till you start seeing deficencies in your plants, that way you can "tune" your dosage.
excess light on its own gives algae
excess light + excess nutriebt gives LOTS of algae
excess CO2 and excess light gives VERY LITTLE algae, mostly green spot alage which you can wipe off the glass.

[alan j t]

thanks for the advise
that sounds like a really good formula
do you think 2 bottles of diy c02 is enough for a 55 gallon :?:

[ILLUSN]

will be ok if change 1 each week so they stay on full steam, make sure you use co2 tubing and not normal airline or you'll lose 1/2 your co2.

[alan j t]

o i didnt know it was that bad
i just thought the hose would get old fast and break down really easly and crack
but not anytime soon

guess i was wrong
see what i get for thinking :oops:

[alan j t]

so do i really need a bubble ladder or counter or something ceramic
its on my canister right now so i guessing the water is absorbing alot of it
would it really make a difference :?:

[ILLUSN]

The tubing wont crack for a very long time, it will become porus within a few weeks and thats how you'll loose your co2. to save money the best diy reactor is just bubbling your co2 into your canister filter. i wouldn't bother with a ladder diffuser or most of the passive reactors, the best are always counter current such as the dupla/aquamedic reacters and some of the powerd reacters like tunze.

[alan j t]

sounds good
so i took out my airstone when i decided to redecorate the tank and left the house with no air stone in the tank
all the fish were on top gasping for air when i came back home
i lost a cory cat :cry:
so the air stones are back in
maybe i can lower the air with a t valve so less agitation will be delivered
to the top of the water line
i just dont know how much flow is to much or too less

[ILLUSN]

keep up the air!

not worth loosing all your fish just to get faster plant growth.

[alan j t]

you got that right
now i got algea on the glass and plants
what do you recommend for algea cleanup :?:
i had albino bushy pleco but they ate my swords
ive read here for ottos or s a algea eater
but they harass discus so im stuck on that :?
the glass i can clean up but the plants are growing string algea
dont get me started on my lace plants :roll: :wink: :wink:

[ILLUSN]

String algae is usually due to excess iron. for algae eaters use ottos, they usually leave discus alone (too shy and slow).
bristlenoses are my next choice but mine like to eat ozolet based swords (ozolet green/red, red flame, green flame etc).
young whiptails are ok useless once they get old.
peppermints are useless, they love beefheart.

to clean up the plants try a double dose of florish excell for a few days or take them out and bleach them.

[tzwms]

Well that sucks: I wrote a long reply and when I tried to review it before submitting, the link broke and I lost everything.
So the short version is:
1) The longest compact flourescent that will fit on your tank - swords like light. Yes you will have an algea problem until the plants take off, but they will take off.
2) You don't need CO2 for swords and DIY CO2 will get you into trouble because you can't control the rate. If you are going to use a DIY system, then you will want an airstone with a steady stream of air - doesn't need to be boiling the water.
3) If you have a good iron rich substrate, then buy a commercial for aquariums plant food and follow the directions. No need for plant tabs and such.

HTH

[alan j t]

ok ill lower the air a little so as to keep some co2
i added plant jobes to the amazons
and the results are great :D :D :D
you recommended plant food
which one do you think :?:

ill stop the iron doses
so ottos it is
even with a 6.5 ph they would be fine and 82-84 temp
and if so how many ottos for a 55 gallon
they wont get rowdy and jump the discus :lol: :lol:
i want to thank everyone for all the info you guys and gals are the best
so is this forum :D :) :D :)

[tzwms]

Regarding the air, you want enough movement to drive off some of the CO2 by moving the water column. Remember, at night, you are putting in CO2 and the plants are generating CO2. You don't want any gasping fish in the morning.

Any of the liquid fertilizers will probably do just fine and you won't need the Jobe stakes either.

Also, how much light in watts are you providing? the other two aren't going to give you the results over the long run without 1.5-2.0 watts per gallon of light.

HTH

[ILLUSN]

2 ottos per square foot tank bottom is a good stocking density (ie 8 in a 4x1xheight). as for a liquid foods i use florish and florish potasium, but you must remember that swords are marsh plants not "100% true" aquatics (with the exception of E.horemanni, urygensis, opacus, potroalegrensis) so they are still designed for nutrient uptake through the roots. i use a half dose of liquid fertz, but the greatest improvement to my swords growth comes from root ferts especially NPK(jobes sticks)

I grow my swords in red sea florabase, seachem flourite, seachem onyx sand and carib sea eco complete. all are deficient in NPK, also all become exausted in iron within 6 months (flora base and eco complete seem to last the longest) of HEAVY growth, so you'll need to supliment iron.
get your growth rate up first then look for deficencies before you start adding fertz to the water column.

again this is what works in my tanks, you'll have to experiment yourself and work out whats best for you.

[alan j t]

that sucks :x
i didnt know that flora base and eco complete would even get exhausted
in the first place
i dont know how many watts i have
the daytime is 10000k the actinic doesnt say any thing but a bunch of numbers and letters
i guess 3 or 4 ottos would do the job

the crypts and anubias have alot of algea even the color cant be seen as much on the older leaves
the swords are practically spotless and my other crypts that look like vals are algea free :)
my lace plant keeps growing leaves then dies from an algea attack
even growing under my giant anubias shadeing it
no luck :? any ideas :?:
the darf sagg is growing faster than the crypts
and of course the wysteria :shock: :wink:
do you think my tank is ready for some vals or tiger lotus
o one more thing would whip tails eat plants :?:
ill buy them young

[ILLUSN]

My whips have never touched a plant except for some mondo japonica, even then it was 3/4 dead before they started i think they just used it as rouphage.

any substrate containg minerals will depleat if a plant uses them, if you overdrive your tank it will depleat faster, try increasing your co2 or double dosing excell till the plants are free of algae.

you can always try a red tiger lotus, its pretty hardy.

[alan j t]

double dosing excel wont harm the fish :?:

[ILLUSN]

DOUBLE THE MAINTENCE DOSE NOT THE INITAL!!!!!

wont hurt discus, my turks still spawned during a double dose of excell.

[alan j t]

OK

[alan j t]

so double the maintenence dose everyday :?:
or everyother day :idea:

[ILLUSN]

i use it for 3 days in a row, on the 4th day your algae wil be brown and dead, you'll have to remove it manually.

[alan j t]

cool 8-)

[alan j t]

so how long does the jobes last in the gravel
or to replaced :?:

[ILLUSN]

re dose every 6 weeks to 3 months depending on growth rate (once it stops redose)

[alan j t]

do you think vals would last in my tank
even though i use excel :?:
which i heard through the grape vine it kills vals

[ILLUSN]

vals are very tough, they'll grow.

[alan j t]

thankx for the reply
can i keep asking you questions :?:
or am i starting to bug you :banghead

[ILLUSN]

ask away :D
sorry if some of the replys are a little breif, just trying to keep up with 3 pairs of spawning discus and a pair of whiptails. :P

[alan j t]

hey hows it going
so i bought a 100 gallon deal of the century tank :D :D
it came with plants low light
bunch of crypts different kinds
the substrate is plain gravel
would it be wise to put the plants in pots :?:
or can i just dose the tank and add some jobes :?:
and if in pots what would you recommend in the pots :?:
from the lfs if they carried it
i was also thinking of buying this huge amazon plant or 2
and also potting them
i have 2 seperate flourescent lights over the tank
hope that enough

[ILLUSN]

pots work great in plain gravel, use a good substrate in the pots, one of the following depending whats on sale eco complete/florabase/folurite/onxy sand , add in 1/2 a jobes stick for NPK and if your potting up swords and crypts a florish tab/clayball etc.

i find the best results with terracotta pots (i believe it's cause they're porus), but all the plants i grow for sale i use plastic.

you light will be fine for swords and crypts, make sure you use good tubes and replace 1/2 of them every 6 months.

dont forget to put up pics

[alan j t]

ok ill try on the pics
thankx for the advise :)

[Mitch]

Hi, Ive got quite a few yellow spots on my swords, so i went to bunnings and got some potassium sulphate (k potash) also bought some Iron Chelate for future use. Just wondering how much is a safe dose for a 400L tank with discus. And where do you get these jobes sticks? Any help would be great, Thanks.

[ILLUSN]

I get my jobes through amazon, you cant get them here, let me know if you want some and i'll add them to my next order (save both of us a bit on postage).

a safe dose for iron in a 400L would be about 1/2 tsp every 2nd or 3rd night, if you get algae, stop adding it, once the algae clears redose at 1/2 strength.

for KSO4 try a 1/4-1/2 tsp every week(i add mine after a water change)

[Mitch]

Thanks heaps ILLUSN, your always have really good advice and super quick. Thanks heaps, Big Thumbs up. :D :D :D