which order for filtration equipment?

[RipSlider]

Hello all,

I have my shopping list sorted out for the main items for my next filtration rig. Now just down to choosing all the connectors etc etc.

Which order would you place the following components in, going from tank outlet to tank return?

"normal" external filter
Fluid Bed filter
Ozone injection system
UV
de-nitrator ( a DIY job ).
Pressurised CO2 system ( ordered but not sure if I need to add it or not)

De-nitrator needs, i think, to go last. Not really sure what the "best" order to place everything else in is.

Equally, not sure that I should have a single flow: i.e 100% of water goes to component A, then B, then C then back to tank.

I guess I ca split the water and run things in parrallel if there is a need.

Thanks

Steve

[taksan]

Ozone injection system?
LOL

[RipSlider]

How come LOL?

Ozone is injected into the water via a marine skimmer. The skimmer won't actually work as designed ( it won't actually skim ) but it will generate a lot of benefits by having loads of ozone in the water:

1) Immediately convert any nitrite ( bad ) into Nitrate ( not as bad ).

2) kill any virus + damage bacteria - similar to UV + makes UV more effective

3) Disable many micro species, such as flukes, macro bacteria etc etc. Will either kill or sterlilise them.

4) most metal salts will collate ( sp??) in the presence of ozone, allowing them to be removed using a simple wool filter

5) Ozone breaks down into oxygen, so is good for the fish

6) passing water that is rich in ozone over carbon will generate carbonic acid, which will rapidly break down into CO2 - so no need for a large CO2 system ( although in my tank, becuase it's large, I might still need SOME additional CO2)

7) Passing ozone rich water over through peat will allow an ion-exchange to happen. Nitrates will be removed, and replaced with rust + nitrogen + water + oxygen. Rust will either be taken up from the plants, or can be filtered out a LOT easier than nitrates can, using poly-filter. always for a very simple, highly effective de-nitrator that is very cheap, very efficient, and very safe.

Therefore, you get nice soft water, which discus like, with a virtually free nitrate remover. And as it's a redox chemical process, rather than a bacteriological one, it can run at high speed, unlike most de-nitrators, which are either a dangerous mixing of acids, or need anaerobic bacteria and both need slow water.

As long as you don't go around inhaling it for long periods, it's got a massive number of up sides, and no down sides, as long as you strip or redox the ozone before it gets to the main tank. And there has been a lot of work from the marine guys on how to do this.


To me, it seems like a good thing
Steve

[taksan]

Ozone injection is very very dangerous.

[Ben]

I would not use O3 for freshwater. The nitrate reductor i would not use either as it looks like your setting up a C02 planted tank, or i would use the C02 as a preference.

[ILLUSN]

order should go canister, fluidized bed filter (this can be driven by the canister) then uv you might need to T the output of your canister so as half goes into the fluidized bed and the other half to the uv, depending on the flowrate of your canister. your nitrate reducer will need a very slow flowrate (50-100l/h) to be effective and so will need it's own seperate pump, if your going to use ozone be very carefull, 1 miss hap will wipeout everything in your tank. o3 is used to sterilize pools spas and sewage/industrial effluant, it's nasty.

[RipSlider]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Couple of points:

1) totally agree that ozone CAN be dangerous, but the marine guys have made a lot of advances in this area, and the benefits now massively outweight the risks. Will have an ORP monitor in the tank linked to the ozone generator. If the ozone reaches a specific concentration, a soliniod will fire, killing the ozone.

2) The de-nitrator can run at "full speed" with no issues, it a chemical process, rather than a biological one, and a fast one at that.

3) does ozone "work" in fresh water? Well, there are a lot less salts, which is a good thing. Probably wouldn't be practical in hard water conditions, such as Mbuma tanks, but for soft water, it means chemistry does a whole lot of hard work for you. May as well take advantage of it.


How does the decision get made between splitting the water flow for the UV and keeping it in a single line. Is there an ideal measure of LpH per Watt of UV?

Thanks

Steve

[ILLUSN]

The de-nitrator can run at "full speed" with no issues, it a chemical process, rather than a biological one, and a fast one at that

fair call, sorry i assumed you were going to use biological filtration (anerobic filtration) to drive your de nitrator (like and old canister filled with siporex and a really slow pump).

if your using chemical denitrator then shoot for the moon, any flow rate would do proably 2x your tank volume per hour as a safe start point.

you didn't mention that youd have an ORP meter, this going to be one awesome tank when your done with it. what canister/fluidised bed/uv combo were you thinking?

[ILLUSN]

I believe the uv equation is 20-50lph per watt depending on what you want to kill. in practice i can say that either a 24w or 18w UV coupled to a 2217 (real world flow 550-600lph) works very well.

your biggest problem with running everything inline will be your fluidised bed filter, even the massive lifeguard FB900 I've got at home has a max flow rate of 200 USgal/hour (800L). In practice I've proably got mine flowing at about 650-700lph to keep propper fluidisation.

[RipSlider]

Most of the stuff is getting recycled in all or part from my current setup. Will be adding bits, and replacing those that I'm not happy with. otherwise wife will explode!

Filters ( this was going to be a seperate debate )
either 2x Eheim Pro III or 2x Fluval FX5.

current tank initially ran on a Pro III, and very good it was as well. However, it went badly pop when a 7lb lump hammer was dropped on it. Was lucky in that could rapidly isolate it from the tank, but was left running around on a sunday afternoon trying to find a replacement. This left me with the FX5 and a whole bunch of stress.

Think that they are about as good as each other, so main decision will be, when have planned the plumbing, if the 2x inlets of the Pro III make life easier or worse. Will choose based on that factor.

Each filter will run between 1/2 and 2/3 speed, and be in parrallel with gang taps. That way, if there is a crisis, I can knock the bad filter out of the system, and turn the functioning one up to full power.


FBF will be the Deltec version, filled with about 1l of sand. They are a swine to get running properly, and send the water stats crazy while they are growning their colony of bacteria ( which took about 40 days last time ) but well worth it in the long run. As long as you don't get a power outage, cos if you do, the entire litre of sand back flushes straight into the tank, which is a total nightmare.


UV: will be re-using my vectron V1 UV light. Is massively over-rated ( it's 30 watt, and designed for a 4,000-10,000 l pond, but it was on sale )

Ozone: Will be using an aquamedic ozone generator

Skimmer: current plan is to get a V2Skim Pro, uprate the down draft pump and greatly slow the water through put. This will mean that there is no chance at all that it will act as a skimmer, but is a convinient way of getting air and ozone into the water. Other option is to do a DIY job, which is just a long column with a bubble plate at the bottom, and pressurise the water column to get the air/ozone to break down. This is do-able, but is more hastle. Perhaps an experiment for future.


De-nitrator: Current plan is to use an old ehiem canister filter that is on the spares shelf filled with irish peat ( after a good boiling and washing ). This would not be powered, the water would just flow through it, and chemistry would do it's magic.

CO2 ( if needed ). CO2 is gettiing purchased, but not fitted immediately, as I think that the ozone running over the carbon will generate enough carbonic acid, and so CO2. If I do add it in, then it's the Dupla Delta set. need to source a largish co 2 bottle source.

All the "bits ( spray bars, surface skimmers, taps, valves etc) are all eheim in 16 mm, with the odd 16>12mm step down joint as required. If FX5's are used, then need 24mm-16mm connectors as well from fluval.

ORP meter is a Hanna ORP/pH meter.

pH, ORP and CO2, along with lights ( 4x 48" T5's, 3 day-light, one white atanic, moonlights etc ) are all rigged to a server that I knocked up a while ago. runs a very basic Linux operating system, and has feeds in from all the devices, Controls soliniods etc as well. That allows me to do timing of lights, co2 control, ozone control etc from a central place, which is much easier. If power goes out to the PC, there is a little UPS that gives the system 10 monutes to kill the lights, the ozone, the co2 etc etc.

a friend of mine has a much bigger tank than me ( 3,800 l ) is is setting up an emergency UPS and an inverter that will give enough juice to keep the filters running for a few hours. Think that this is a bit too OTT personally, but will see if it turns out to be useful. Luckily, we don't have many power cuts in the UK, and they are never for very long and an FBF can easily survice 6 hours without power.


debating on the following;

1) some form of box with a powerful air pump run ning into a limewood bubbler to ensure that as much ozone as possible is vented

2) Additional pump - not sure that the filters by themselves will be powerful enough to support this, so may need to add in extra pump. if this is the case, will add in one of the Eheim Hobby pumps ( not sure what size yet )


As you can see, I am attempting to trade off, to some extent, technology for rigorous care. I can't guarentee that I will ALWAYS be at home, so sometime the fish may go 10 days or so without a water change. Want the system to ensure good water for at least this long.

Steve

[taksan]

As you can see, I am attempting to trade off, to some extent, technology for rigorous care.

Steve

I can see that.... but there is NO SUBSTITUTE for rigorous care.

I'm sorry but all the money and technology in the world cannot replace regular water changes.

[Proteus]

In regards to Ozone, you are wasting your time using it in a freshwater environment, and playing with danger.

Ozone works well in Marine due to the higher ORP/Redox potential of the water, plus it is only injected into the skimmer. I have seen people try it on freshwater, to date those 3 people had a 100% loss of stock, i.e. all the fish they had and had spent a lot of money on were dead.

[taksan]

Plus Ozone can kill YOU and EVERYONE in your house !!!! as well as your fish !!!!!

[samir]

you need a canister with some seachem matrix in it, maybe a uv attached to the filter outlet and you will need a heater in the tank. matrix will take care of the ammonia and nitrite once the filter cycles. After a couple of months it will start getting rid of nitrate as well.

[RipSlider]

OK, I want to deal with the ozone stuff properly:

There are a few claims here:
1) Ozone is dangerous to me
2) Ozone won't work in fresh water.

Also:
Can't trade technology for good fish care.


Looking at them in that order:

1) Ozone will be bad for me:
Your right that, if I breath liters of the stuff, it probably won't do me a lot of good. I won't actually die, but I could do without it.

How to mitigate this:
1) Big bag off charcoal sittiong on top of the skimmer, leading to having damp charcoal and some carbon dioxide. ( basic chemistry that one )

2) crack a window: The amount of ozone is not a lot, it's fractions of a single liter an hour. O3 will break down into normal oxygen within 10-15 minutes in a dry room. In a damp atmosphere, this will happen in less than 5. Lastly, filtration is in a seperate room ( room behind the tank, with a section of the room boxed off for filtration ). Any ozone that manages to escape the carbon, the humidity and is still around will go straight out of the window.

Chances of lethality: Absoleutely none at all.


Ozone won't work in fresk water/it needs salts to work:

Again, not true at all. Ozone is an unstable molucule. All the clever stuff thaat it does happens after it's broken down to oxygen + a free radical.

When this break down happens in salt water, most ( not done the calc's but lets guess at 90%) of the free radicals are going to bind to the salts, which they REALLY like, rather than doing something that's actually useful, like killing all of those bacteria, or turning Nitrites into Nitrates.

In fresh water, it can get on with it's job a lot easier. Which in turns means that a lot less is needed than in marine systems ( helps with point 1)...

So i'll initially be running the ozone at 15% of marine calcs. And I'll have an ORP monitor in the main tank itself, set to very conservative levels. ORP monitor will be feeding a server, which can kill the ozone production in less than 1/2 a second if it breaches the high value.


Salt water has a higher Redox potential: Yep, this is true. POTENTAIL being the keey word. And the thing is, I don't want redox happening. Lots of Redox = ozone not doing it's job properly. If it's redox'ing, it means that it hasn't been used anywhere else, so is breaking down in the main tank water. which is a pain in the back side, and a waste of ozone.

However, by the time it's interacted with any nitrites, and then any pathogens, and then passed through carbon, and then passed through an iron rich peat filter, it will have been exposed to so many sources of breakdown which are chemcially more favourable to it than a pure

03+h20 -> 2H20 + 02

redox, that there should be very little of it actually going on. remember as well that at least 90% of any ozone actually injected is going to vent straight out of the top of the skimmer to air anyway.

And lets talk about testing as well.

the tank has to cycle, ( fishless cycling for me ) and then it will be left for a few weeks anyway ( will feed the tank each day to ensure that the bacteria keep living - need the FBF to stabalise). The tank will be running for 6 weeks at least with no fish. During those few weeks, I'll be testing EVERYTHING. How the server is working. Is the UPS system up to scracth, levels of o3, levels of co2, slow leaks in the filtration, how the FBF is doing etc etc etc.

a lot of that time will be spent balancing out the o3 system. However, it's not like I've not used o3 before, it's already running in all of my marine tanks. And THEY got tested in the same way as well. And I documented everything so that I'm not starting from scrath either.

And if the testing shows issues, I can drop a mail to an expert. Such as Bob Fenner or Steve Pro. And those guys have a LOT of experience with O3 in fresh water, and reckon it's the bee's knees. ( and seeing as Bob fenner is about as close as a fish keeper can get to a living deity, and he's strongly pushing the idea, I reckon it's a good one) And if THEY can't solve the issue, I can stop the o3 as a last resort. And there STILL won't be a single fish in the tank.


Lets kill off some dogma here and now:

Ozone does not kill fish. stupid fish keepers who don't do the reading, the research, the thinking and the testing, kill fish, by over dosing with ozone.

Equally, feeding fish too much protien doesn't kill fish, stupid fishkeepers who don't do the reading, the research and the thinking kill them, becuase the protien breaks down into nasty chemicals that kill their fish.

It's the same thing. We all know about the protien one, however, a lot of people seem to not realise it's exactly the same thing with the ozone question.

the thing is, ozone is a chemical substance. And it's interacting with other chemical substances. In a very predicatble, well known manner. It's not rocket science, it's just basic chemisty. As long as I keep that basic chemistry in mind, do the thinking, do the research, and do the testing, I'll have really good quality water, and so really healthy fish.

The ONLY way that ozone will end up killing them is if I get lazy and stop thinking through the issues. And I have no intention of that.


OK, last point, trading technolgy for good fish care.

There is a guy in my street who has a tank full of the most amazing blue cobalt discus. The fish look outstanding. Yet he only does one water change a month. Personally, I think that's a risky proposition, and certainly not one I'd try, but it goes to show that discus are pretty tiugh fish.

with my current tanks, especially my marines, I usually do 1 water change a week at least, sometimes even three in my odd ball tank becuase of all the meat and fish they eat. And that won't change whether I get discus or not.

However, becuase of my job ( IT contractor ) I can't ensure that I will be at home every day, and so I want some form of back up. I'm not trying to buy my way out of caring for my fish, I just want them to have as perfect conditions as possible in as stable an enviroment as possible, so that if I'm a day or two late with a water change, then it really won't matter very much.

Here's an example: the tank that is going to be the discus tank is currently a community tank. it's incredibly stable. it gets 1 water change a week. In the last year, it has never generated ANY measureable ammonia or nitrite. Occasionally it will generate 2-3ppm of nitrate if my wife has been a but heavy handed during feeding. There has never been a single out break of any disease and the tetra's, the cory's, the puffers and the geo's are all at least 15-20% bigger than they are expected to be.

Why? Becuase I massively over-filter the system. I could, with no issues what so ever, leave the tank a month without a water change, and it would still be in a much better state than most people's 3ft tank with an internal filter after one week.

I don't do this. I still do the water change. I still check every fish every night.

The excess filtration is not there so I can take it easy, it's there becuase I want the fish, which are pets, to have as good and healthy life as possible, and it's there as a back up.

The filtration suggested above is pretty much the same as my current system, with some improvements. And this STILL won't stop me changing the water, checking every fish every night I'm home etc.

However, if I get called to the US for a few days near the end of a week, I'll be flying knowing that my fish are going to be in perfect condition when I get back.

It's only fair to do that. I'm responsible for them.

Steve

[taksan]

Could you please leave me your Pro3's in your will?

[RipSlider]

I tell you what.

If I die of Ozone poisoning, I hereby declare that I will donate Taksan ALL my fishy belongings. From ALL the tanks. And you can have the choice of fish as well. And there's butterfly fish and l46 plec's in there, so you'll be getting a good deal.

hmmm.... perhaps we should make this more interesting:

Taksan picks a charity. If a single fish dies in the main tank (not in quarentine, just the main discus tank ) within the first 6 months, and an even 1/4 sensible argument can be made that it MIGHT have been ozone related, then I'll donate £50 (UK pounds ) to that charity.


By this I mean that if my wife does what she did to my first fish tank, and wonders if the fish would like to eat an orange Opal Friut while I'm away from home for a few days, and all the fish die, then this is obviously not ozone related. Just stupidity related. However, if a discus goes dark and dies, then it COULD have been ozone, in which case the money goes to charity.

And I promise I will be completely honest aboout it and will post regular updates + photo's so you can count the fish yourselves.


I guess the interesting question is if anyone would make a counter bet, and back me on keeping all the fish alive?? However, my bet stands, don't mind if there is no counter to it.

So, Taksan, pick a charity.

Steve

[taksan]

I tell you what.

So, Taksan, pick a charity.

Steve

Eheim aid ...... sent all 2180's to ME

[RipSlider]

Was a serious suggestion.


Steve

[Merrilyn]

Taksan you have more eheim Pro 3s than anyone I know, so stop kidding around :whip

This is a serious enquiry, and I know nothing about ozone, so offer some serious help here, or I'll post the photos of you clowning around with the new tank (and you know the ones I mean :wink: )

[taksan]

I'm serious .... Skydiving without a parachute is safer then using Ozone.
9 domestic Aquarist deaths last year in the US from Ozone poisoning.

[Merrilyn]

Ohhhhhhhh is that why you wouldn't help me set up the ozone unit I bought.

[RipSlider]

I have to say this REALLY seriously:

In the last year, there were NO deaths, anywhere, from ozone poisoning due to the tiny amounts generated for aquatic use.

*perhaps* from the massive units that big industry uses, but agaion I dount it.

Bare in mind that one of the newer treatments being used at hospitals to help with blood disorders and some forms of cancer, plus a whole load of other stuff, is to treat patients with ozone in a hypobaric chamber.

That's where they fill a big steel box with ozone, and a patient, and then pressurise it to 4-6 PSI. And then they stay there for a number of hours. And they come out better than they go in.

What CAN cause deaths, or accidnts at leats, is if ozone leaks into a un-ventilated space. At that point, you can risk a fire. But like I said, there's a fan going into the filter room, and there will be a window in there open 24/7. And VERY little ozone.

Put it this way, I'm willing to bet mine, my wife and my cats lives on it. And I'm a pretty risk adverse person.


Anywho, getting back to the topic:

order looks to be:

filters
FBF
ozone/skimmer
UV
ozone-stripper/de-nitrator.

Does this seem about right?

And if so, do you thing that 2x Pro III or FX5's running 2/3 open will be able to supply enough pressure, or should I add in an additional pump?

Thanks

Steve

[taksan]

FX5's suck ....

[mistakes r crucial]

Regarding ozone generators, if you've ever used the stuff and walked in to a room even 15 minutes after the unit was switched off you'd know instantly it was bad for your health, it takes your breath away and you can actually taste it. It takes very little to give you permanent lung damage and a whole host of other nasty ailments, I simply wouldn't take the risk.
MAC

[taksan]

I have to say this REALLY seriously:

In the last year, there were NO deaths, anywhere, from ozone poisoning due to the tiny amounts generated for aquatic use.




That is simply not true.

Last year in the US alone.

A Aquarist in New Jersey died of Ozone induced lung failure when his Ozone computer malfunctioned on the reef tank in his basement.

Similar incidents were reported in New York and Boston and in California where 2 separate fatal Asthma attacks were directly linked to Ozone used in Aquariums.

A Ozone caused explosion and fire in a house in Georgia caused by a marine fish tank system left a family of 4 homeless and injured.


As for commercial use the US catfish industry carries insurance of over $500 million specifically related to Ozone related accidents and illnesses.

Over 100 Ozone related deaths or severe illnesses have been reported in the US over the past 20 years in the Aquaculture and Swimming pool industry's.


You simply refuse to believe that Ozone is dangerous both to fish and humans, ineffective in freshwater and unnecessary. It also blows up and catches fire really well.

You have your mind made up so its useless arguing the point.

As a admin here I think its important to state that Discus forums does not recommend the use of Ozone for any Aquariums and anyone considering its use should proceed with the greatest caution and then forget about it anyway.

While Ozone with proper application can be of assistance in Marine tanks all it takes is a malfunction for it to become a life threatening situation for both fish and fishkeeper.


Ozone is dangerous and useless for freshwater and promoting its use for Aquariums is strongly discouraged.

End of discussion about Ozone.

[mistakes r crucial]

As the old saying goes, you can take a horse to water but you can't make the buggar drink!
MAC

[Proteus]

Ozone is dangerous and useless for freshwater and promoting its use for Aquariums is strongly discouraged.

Sorry Steve, but I have to stand by what Taksan has just said for several reasons. Firstly I base this on personal experience and having worked in the aquarium industry. Secondly, whilst there are applications where Ozone can have a positive effect, there is just too much scientific data out there saying that there is an extreme element of danger involved in the use of this atmospheric gas.

It may work for you, but so long as you and everyone else know that there are risks involved I can rest easy at night.

[RipSlider]

Hmmm...

I'm anxious not to, either actually or seemingly, antagonise or annoy any members of this board, becuase I hope to keep coming here. And so if any of you are already, please let me offer my apologies and make a short statement, then lock off the topic or what ever is seen as appropriate:

Ozone seems to be a contensious issue. And I can understand some of the reasons why. It can be dangerous if it builds up and then catches fire. There is some debate on how safe it is etc etc. So, following from what the Admins have said, I am in NO way advocating that other people use it if they feel that it is the right thing to do.

I've done a lot of reseach on it. I have a bio-chem degree which gives me some confidence in deciding when I'm reading and uderstanding the "right things". I have friends who are doing bio-chem at post-doc level, and I have discussed the use of ozone with them, and they also believe that it's safe to use. Lastly, Bob Fenner supports the use of ozone, in fresh as well as marine, systems, and that sways me as well.

I will continue to experiment with ozone, but I WILL be doing a lot of testing. You guys are concerned. there's a reason for that, and I've taken on board what you've said. It will lead to extra testing, and extra precations in the filter room. I promise.

However, I will not discuss the use of it on these boards, and I won't advocate it's use on these boards.

At the end of the day, I'm here to learn about discus, and I don't want to get into a slanging match and arguments about the free-radicalisation of oxygen.

If I do drop dead, then I will have been warned by you guys, and I promise in advance that my ghost won't wave it's finger at any of you saying "you should have told me" Personally I reckon, to an incredibly high certainty, that I'll be absolutely fine, but you guys don't, so I'll abandon the subject.

Once again, I'm here to learn about fish, I don't want, and didn't intend to cause arguments.

Steve