New to Discus

[Fefe]

Hello All,
Let me introduce myselfe, i am 29 old guy from Karachi Pakistan have been keeping Goldfishes for about 14 years got fedup with them because of their POOP and murcky water :?
decide to change the look my tank.....cleaned all the filters and washed the tank filed the tank and kept it runing for about a week, bought three big size discus they are happy in the tank, so bought another 14 very small discuss now all the small ones are dying :oops:
my tanks specs are:197 US gal,2 external filters 1500 liters p/hr.
we dont have test kits available only test kit is available is PH tester (water life) and it has shade card on back of the box and you have to check the color in the tube with that shade card.
bought a water life 6.5 ph buffer and added to the tank, when i put that buffer in the water turn soft and when i check second day it turns hard again,why is that.
i have ceramic rings and activated carbon as filter midea is it creating problem?
i also have lots of amazon graa and drift wod in my tank.
thanks for your help in advance.
Love
Rafaqat

[flukes]

Well carbon can remove medicatons i dont know if it screws with buffers too. Another thing is you might have killed any good bacteria, and without an ammonia test kit its hard to know if the bacteria is present to combat the ammonia levels.

[Fefe]

Well i have Amonite as filter media so i m not worried about Amonia it is somethin else.maybe the small ones are really too delicate to handle or maybe they were extremly stresed when i bought them.

[flukes]

If discus can be transported all over the world without dying i dont think they will die from stress by bringing them home from the local fish shop.
Fish dying from stress is too do with poor water quality. Kev proved too me how much stress a discus can actually take, I had 3 discus shipped for say 10 hours from sydney on 35c day and i was certain they wouldn't make it, Kev assured me they would be ok and surely enough they are in my tank swimming happy as larry.
The other thing i was thinking is are you conditioning your water??
I dont know what pakistan's water is like but most water around the world need to be condtioned. If your adult discus are fine it wouldn't be anything major. Does your local fish shop where you bought them from test water?? If they do get them to test it and record the results.
Are you doing water changes, nirates might be high and need to have the water changed.

It could be a number of things but i hope something i suggested might help
Scott

[Fefe]

Thanks scott...well the fish shop here in Pakistan never relaly care about water quality or anything they dont even know these things.....i once saw Goldfish fild Tank with Few discus in it.
Anyways is there any method to lower PH without using buffer as it is very expensive here and i got a very big tank.

[Proteus]

Hi Fefe, welcome to DF.com

Do you have access to Peat Moss??? or Peat in the granulated form... that works well to lower the pH and also releases tannins which are highly beneficial to Discus..

other than that chemicals is about the only way to get your pH down, out of curiousity, what is your pH at the moment?

[Fefe]

Thank you ..... i m searching for peat moss...but i m not too sure if i can get it....can you please guide what are the names of those chemicals....and yes another question is Malbro red very expensive type of Discuss?
Warm Regards
Rafaqat

[flukes]

Malbro red woulbn't be classified expensive it not the cheapest but at the same time its not a discus that you will be paying top dollar for. They used to be on the rarer side of things but as most popular fish the market gets flooded with them and the price soon comes down. Dont know what currency you use but here a blue diamond is like $40 and malbro's you can get for probably $50-60

Cheers
Scott

[kevkoi]

Fefe, peat moss u may not find in your part of the world, BUT, a good substitute for that is actually the dried "Indian Almond leaf" (Terminalia catappa) to reducs the pH and bring the water down to acidic levels. It is also professed to have mild antibacterial/antifungal properties and I know a number of Discus breeders in Asia that swear by this stuff! (Not only discus breeders, but Betta breeders and Arowana breeders!)

Check out the UK discus association site. It even has a brief write up about this leaf.
http://ukdiscus.com/tcatappa.htm

U can read lots more about the properties of this leaf online... just do a google search and u'll get lots of hits.

As for small discus, yes they can be sensitve. If you're not an experienced discus keeper, I would suggest buying discus as big as you can afford or at least a minimum of 6-7cm. Small discus require lots of little feedings in a day or they will stunt and not do well.

Good luck with ur new discus keeping hobby and welcome to the DF.

kev

[flukes]

Great info Kev, nice to learn something new!!
Also peat can be found in garden supplies stores as fertilisers its just you need to ask the person working there, possibly somone who knows what they are talking about if its ok for aquarium use. I dont know what you have to look for on the packaging but iam sure someone here will stear you in the right direction.

[kevkoi]

Yeah well, I'd steer you away from using garden center peat....

I know it's cheaper, but it's meant for plants. There may be fertilisers and fungicides in the mixture which MAY be harmful to your fish. I really wouldn't risk it, when especially a number of Aquarium product companies make peat granules which are definately safe for aquarium use.

cheers
kev

[flukes]

Yeah i see what your saying kev but when you only have access to one fish store you have limited option. Id be seeing if this fish store has any peat, if they do well great if not then id try the indian leafs kev was talking about then as a last resort try the peat from gardening supplies, i know the supermarket in oz stocks some that is aquarium safe but its a matter of what you have access to. Just see what you can find but if your not successful try the gardening peat as a last resort and ask someone and if they dont know dont buy it. And watch out for people just trying to make a sale, if they say "yes use this peat because it doesn't contain....." then it sounds like they know what they are talking about but if they have no reasons and it like "I think this might be alright" then dont get it.
Try to stear clear of chemicals that lower ph like ph down, it noramlly changes rapidly and will cause a ph shock on the fish and many people have a hard time trying to find the right amount to get it to the desired level.

[Fefe]

Thank you all..well i searched a lot on Peat Moss and found a product called Peat Moss but the prblem is that thing more look like a natural compost or wood bark and was in the form of powder!!...i cant risk pouring that thing in my filter...plz key can you guide me how i can use those almonds leavs should i put them in a bag and keep that bag in external filter....i really appreciate all your help.
Warm Regards
Rafaqat

[flukes]

Just another question using that water life??ph tester what is your tap water?? Also if you can try to order test kits online or ask your LFS if they can get them in or test your water, test your tap water so you know what you have to work with. If you know you tap water parameters then you just get things like kh gh tested every 2 weeks or so, these shouldn't change at all in the aquaiurm unless something like shell grit or something is used as long as you got your ph test kit you should be right for your kh gh. Also get your ammonia and nitrite test if the LFS can do it other wise, before adding fish id recommend using a fishless cycle. I did this for the first time on this tank and ive never had a trace of either nitrite or ammonia because iam adding enough ammonia to create enough bacteria to be able to cope with more than the bio load that the fish i was putting in.

Cheers
scott

[kevkoi]

Hey Scott, stop daunting the poor guy....
Keeping fish in various parts of the world can be very different to how we keep fish here in Australia (or much of the Western world). I wouldn't be surprised if his LFS wouldn't have a clue what an Amonia and Nitrite test are and here u are hitting him with GH and kH? :lol: ... but then again, I may be way off.

OK, how are the bigger discus looking? Are their fins erect and the colour on the fish good and bright? Are they eating well? What are u feeding them with? IF you're feeding with live tubifex/bloodworms (which is common practice in many parts of Asia), be careful. I don't like using live worms because of the risk of introducing parasites and disease. Are the bigger discus responsive or are they always hiding away from you? Healthy discus should be responsive and not reclusive. When u walk up to the tank, the healthy discus should come up to the front glass and looking for you to feed them! A 'hungry looking' discus is a healthy discus.

U can tell a lot just by looking at the behaviour of the discus without the use of test kits (although it sure makes life easier to have them).

We take for granted that the rest of the world is 'into' testing water as we are.....
Here's a funny story. Most of the Discus breeders I talk to in Penang know about pH (they can confidently tell you the pH of their water), but try asking about amonia, nitrite, nitrate, kH, gH, filtration bacteria, nitrogen cycle etc etc and they look at you and say, "White-man keep fish very complicated.... Here we just change water." :lol: And it looks like their way works too! These breeders have over 500tanks and churn out top quality discus by the thousands!... Many have won awards and international acclaim... but on their 500tanks, u won't see a single filter on them and one air line blowing bubbles (not even an airstone on the airline!).

So there, I'm not say either way of keeping fish is right or wrong... just thought I'd share my thoughts.

Oh, and in Veitnam, I see Discus growing out in outdoor Goldfish vats! In Malaysia, I have 10 full size discus swimming around in my outdoor koi pond together with koi that are up to 80cm! Never fed the discus directly... just feed everyone koi pellets. These fish are 'retired' breeders from my uncle... but hey, they've been in there for 2year and they still look nice and chunky, no disease problems. (Bear in mind, the tropical climate in Malaysia allows for discus keeping outdoors throughout the year). Here, we pamper our fish a bit too much IMO. ;)

kev

[Fefe]

Wow Kev Thanks for thsi i reall needed it.....well you r right these guys at fish shop laugh at me if i speak to them about PH amonia nitrates and nitrite they no nothin about it....well my new and ols Big discus are very active they are eating like pigs...and yes when i come in front of the tank they all come up and nibble the glass, they have very cute brilliant colors, red eyes,all fins intact no trace of fin rot, the biggest one i think he is male have problem i guess he eats a lot and also come up2 the front of tank but most of the time he is hiding behind things and turn almost black.
i really really appreciate your inputs.
And yes i bought Molbro red 5" at US$26/00 i guess it is not that exp.
Thanking you all from my heart
Rafaqat

[flukes]

Well there you go, dont listen to my mindless dribble if you what you do works, number 1 rule in discus do what works for you. I found that out the hard way reading too many post then trying to fix things in the tank that didnt need fixing.
You did say you have a ph test kit yeah?? really if your discus are doing well then id say the kh and gh are fine. And you could survive of just a ph test kit. I thought you just got the discus, sorry about all the dribble if things are good then nothing needs to be done.

[kevkoi]

Yeah, sounds like u have everything under control.

Just take my advice on buying the biggest size discus u can afford. Anything under 5cm can be touchy and sensitive, especially if you've got some bigger fish which will out-compete them for food.

Marlboro reds... nice fish. These guys dust/speckle in hard water and strong lighting. So if you see lotsa black dots appearing on the reds, it's either your lighting is too strong or your water is hard. :)

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=105
*photo I pinched off the net.....*
hoping your Marlboro reds look like this one and u'll one day actually see this happening in your tank!


cheers
kev

[Fefe]

Thanks Kev u r a real help thanks once again......Well few more questions...you said that i should not feed them Blood worms..how i can feed beaf Heart i mean u just clean the fat off the heart and cut into small pcs and pour in the water? it will sink to the bottom! will discus pick from bottom of the tank......i have hikari sinking type pellets i can soak them and fed them?
And yes you said that i can use Indian almond Leaf dried...how to use that should i put them in a net bag and add as filter media in external filters? We have a sort of almond tree in our garden but it is not the almond tree as in USA which produces real almonds.. the tree have few dark red leaves and few green ones....i m too much of trouble to you guys sorry about that but i love my new fish and like them to have the best.
Thanks for yoru support all
Love
Rafaqat

[kevkoi]

OK, sounds like everything u have been doing previously is correct... so don't go changing it.

I said, the bloodworms if live, MAY harbour parasites. If you can get frozen bloodworms, that would be better.

If you've never done the beefheart thing, don't do it. It's not just chopping up the heart and feeding the fish... It will pollute the water quite badly. There is a beefheart mix recipe somewhere on this forum..... I'm no expert in this beefheart thing.

The Indian almond tree is like the one you described. The scientific name of that tree is Terminalia catappa. Do an internet seach on this name and u will see the tree and the leaves and how ppl have been using these in their fish tanks...

HOWEVER, if you pH out of your tap is already fine and good, there is no need to go mess around with those leaves. I just brought it up because it reduces pH and I thought I'd point it out to fellow members of the board about their use. DOES NOT MEAN U HAVE TO USE IT.

kev

[Fefe]

can i feed hikari sinking type fish pellets...and i still want to add those leaves as i think my tap water is hard i have tested it.
Thanks
Rafaqat

[kevkoi]

Hikari food is good..

[Fefe]

Thank a 100000000 times kev u r helping a lot is pellet food good for discus?

[Fefe]

i tried feeding them pellets butthey are not eating those as they sink too fast....i m feeding them Today's Freeze Dried Blood Worms....i hope this food dosent have any thing bad.

[Proteus]

Freeze dried Blood worms are ok...

basically anything that has been frozen, etc (whether still frozen or not) has had all micro-organisms and parasites killed due to the temperatures used, so you will be fine...

You will find with the pellets, they will eat them off the bottom of the tank, and as time goes by they will realise that it is actually food dropping down and I gaurantee it wont hit the bottom after then...

:wink:

[Fefe]

Thanks fopr your reply so should i continue feeding them Pellets..i can plan one time worms and one time pellets?
Thanks
Rafaqat

[Proteus]

Variety is your best friend...

I have about 3-4 types of pellets, granules, some premium flake, and 2-3 types of frozen food including Bloodworms & Beefheart...

I try and give them something different or at least a different combination every day... and they love it!!!