A Question For Merrilyn

[Tommo]

Hi Merrilyn
Can You Please Give Me The Run Down On Keeping Altums :D

From Water Parameters To Plants And Other Fish .Also Filter Requirements "Media"

I Have A 4X2X2 , What Would You Suggest As To How Many Altums And What Other Plants And Fish ?

I Have Kept Discus Before And Angels And Typical Community Fish
Although I Guess Thats Irrelevant To Keeping Altums

I Guess You Are The Best Person To Ask Because , You Have Kept Them Alive For So Long, and They Are Looking Sensational From All Of The Pics That Have Been Posted.


I Have A 4X2X2 , FX5 Filter ,2X54 Light "8500k" Tubes.. More Lights Are Not A Problem If They Are Needed ,Co2 Injection As I Like Plants .18Watt UVC,Any Help Would Be Sensational.

How Easy Are Altums To Obtain ?

Your Advise Would Be Convivial!

Cheers :D

[Merrilyn]

Hi fisho99.

As you may know, this is my second attempt at keeping altums. A couple of years ago taksan and I bought twenty juveniles to go with my existing colony which consisted of 3 sub adults that I had kept for 12 months.

The juveniles grew well for around 3 or 4 months, when I decided they had grown big enough to put them in the with 3 sub adults. Within a week, fish began dying, and by the end of three weeks all were dead, despite being strong and healthy prior to the move.

It took me two years, and a lot of research before I felt confident that I could keep altums alive, and purchased 16 of them from a LFS in Melbourne. Twelve months later, those 16 are alive and well and thriving, and soon to be moved into the ten foot Jebo tank on their own.

Now, I believe I've found the cause of the problem with wild altums. There is no actual cure, but there are things that you must and must not do if you are to raise these beauties successfully.

First of all, buy your altums young, very young. The size of a 5 cent coin with fins is about right. The smaller ones travel better, and seem to accept quarantine and living in captivity more easily. Buy them early in the catching season, which I think starts around September. All the altums we get here in Aus are wild caught. Unfortunately the tank bred ones from Germany don't reach us here. They are all shipped to Japan and USA where the buyers pay BIG money. I know that for a fact. The information comes directly from the German breeder.

Second, and this is probably the most important rule with wild altums - buy your stock all at once and from the one source. NEVER ever mix groups of altums from different catching areas. And NEVER mix them with other altums you may already have. Disaster will surely follow. I have spoken to dozens of people who have kept altums, and the story has been the same from every one of them. Wild altums were fine till they mixed them with other altums or other angels, then they all died.

I will even go so far as to recommend not mixing wild altums with any cichlid, and that includes other angels and discus too. These guys are not a community fish, they need a species tank all to themselves, and they need a tank at least 2 foot deep. 2 foot 6 inches would be even better.

There is a theory among the fish scientists, that altums are immune to any diseases found in their own little stretch of the river. But the moment you mix them with altums (or angels) from a community from another part of the river, they will cross infect each other and all will die. Whilst they are immune to diseases from their own area, they have no immunity to diseases from another group. (A bit like us going to a third world country without getting vaccinated.)

And third, low pH around 5.5 and lots of oxygen in the water is essential. Plus my favourite, lots of water changes at the very least 30% twice a week, and lots of big filtration. I have big Eheim filters on all my tanks, and fill them with the best filter media on the market. This is one area you don't want to skimp. Remember that these guys come from super clean water, just like discus, and you want to try to replicate that.

That's about the best advice that I can offer anyone contemplating buying altums. I've tried the other ways, with disasterous effects. This is the only way that I've found will work.

[ILLUSN]

Merrilyn, any chance of sharing what kind of media you use and approx how much filtration you have per tank? Your fish are stunning, I'm kinda temped to give them a try myself.

[Zbiljc]

Hi fisho99.

As you may know, this is my second attempt at keeping altums. A couple of years ago taksan and I bought twenty juveniles to go with my existing colony which consisted of 3 sub adults that I had kept for 12 months.

The juveniles grew well for around 3 or 4 months, when I decided they had grown big enough to put them in the with 3 sub adults. Within a week, fish began dying, and by the end of three weeks all were dead, despite being strong and healthy prior to the move.

It took me two years, and a lot of research before I felt confident that I could keep altums alive, and purchased 16 of them from a LFS in Melbourne. Twelve months later, those 16 are alive and well and thriving, and soon to be moved into the ten foot Jebo tank on their own.

Now, I believe I've found the cause of the problem with wild altums. There is no actual cure, but there are things that you must and must not do if you are to raise these beauties successfully.

First of all, buy your altums young, very young. The size of a 5 cent coin with fins is about right. The smaller ones travel better, and seem to accept quarantine and living in captivity more easily. Buy them early in the catching season, which I think starts around September. All the altums we get here in Aus are wild caught. Unfortunately the tank bred ones from Germany don't reach us here. They are all shipped to Japan and USA where the buyers pay BIG money. I know that for a fact. The information comes directly from the German breeder.

Second, and this is probably the most important rule with wild altums - buy your stock all at once and from the one source. NEVER ever mix groups of altums from different catching areas. And NEVER mix them with other altums you may already have. Disaster will surely follow. I have spoken to dozens of people who have kept altums, and the story has been the same from every one of them. Wild altums were fine till they mixed them with other altums or other angels, then they all died.

I will even go so far as to recommend not mixing wild altums with any cichlid, and that includes other angels and discus too. These guys are not a community fish, they need a species tank all to themselves, and they need a tank at least 2 foot deep. 2 foot 6 inches would be even better.

There is a theory among the fish scientists, that altums are immune to any diseases found in their own little stretch of the river. But the moment you mix them with altums (or angels) from a community from another part of the river, they will cross infect each other and all will die. Whilst they are immune to diseases from their own area, they have no immunity to diseases from another group. (A bit like us going to a third world country without getting vaccinated.)

And third, low pH around 5.5 and lots of oxygen in the water is essential. Plus my favourite, lots of water changes at the very least 30% twice a week, and lots of big filtration. I have big Eheim filters on all my tanks, and fill them with the best filter media on the market. This is one area you don't want to skimp. Remember that these guys come from super clean water, just like discus, and you want to try to replicate that.

That's about the best advice that I can offer anyone contemplating buying altums. I've tried the other ways, with disasterous effects. This is the only way that I've found will work.

Can I copy that? I will give link to here?

[Tommo]

Hi Merrilyn,Thanks For The Information "Sensational Stuff" ,When You Say They Are A Species Tank Only Fish ,In One Of The Pic's I See Some Neons ,Where They Put In The Tank For Cycling Or Can You Keep These With Altums ?

Also Your Plants What Kinds Do You Have In The Tank ?

Does The Tank Have Co2 Injection ?

What Sort Of Foods Are You Feeding Them ?

Do You Run A UV With The Tank That The Altums Are In ?

At The LFS Who Would I Speak To About Getting Some In For Me ? And What Sort Of Price Would I Be Looking At ?

In The Post You Have Said " Don't Skimp On Media " What Sort Are You Using ?

Thanks For The Infomation Merrilyn It's Much Appreciated :D

[Merrilyn]

Zbiljc, yes you are welcome to use that information. I hope it helps others become successful with wild altums.

Fisho and Illusn, I have Eheim canister filters on all my tanks, filled with Eheim media as per recommendations for each filter. The altum tank will soon have an Eheim Pro 3 running on there to replace the smaller Eheim that's on there now.

I also use bags of Nitrazorb in the top trickle filter of the tank, and they are replaced each 6 weeks or so, but the main thing is the water changes, twice a week of at least 30% and sometimes 50%.

Substrate is Eco Complete with no C02 running in the tank at all. Plants are just your typical swords, broad leaf and narrow leaf, with a big bunch of wisteria growing in the corner of the tank, and allowed to spread out over the surface of the tank to cut down the light. It's an absolute sponge for soaking up excess nitrates. It grows like a weed and needs to be constantly trimmed, but I never have an algae problem in tanks with it growing (I hardly ever have a nitrate reading either LOL ).

I do have a large UV running on that tank, I think a 30 watt DeBarry from what I can remember, and a small Eheim filled with standard media, to run the UV. I'm not sure if a UV is doing much when the pH is so low, but I just feel more comfortable knowing that one is on there.

Feeding is standard discus foods, my own beefheart and seafood recipe, frozen bloodworms and Breeders Blend flake food. They eat everything and are always looking for more.

I haven't pushed the feeding with this lot. They're fed morning and night, and that's all. I want them to develop slowly, without forcing the growth too much. The reasoning behind that is that wild caught fish, at whatever age, always seem to be a bit skinny, so it's probably more natural for them to be a little bit hungry, rather than have food on offer 5 or 6 times a day.

Several of the local Melbourne aquarium shops will get them in for you, although I know some flatly refuse, because of the high mortality rate. If you like, I'll send you a PM with the name of the shop I got mine from.

As far as price goes, around $80 to $100 a fish, depending on the size. But do ask to see them eating before you buy them, just as a precaution.

And do make sure you are getting Orinoco Altums. The so called Peruvian Altum is not an altum at all but a scalare. Don't be fooled by the dished face ! Check out the stripes, they must be brown and black and silver. If it's black and silver, it's peruvian.

HTH

[Merrilyn]

Forgot to add about tankmates.

When I first got them, I put them in a tank with 100 neons which had first been quarantined and wormed. The crowd of neons helped them to settle in, and I'm sure, it made them feel more comfortable at feeding times, watching the neons dive in for food.

As the altums grew, the neons 'became' lunch, instead of joining them for lunch :oops: They've all gradually been eaten, but any kind of larger tetra or catfish would be fine in the tank. Just no cichlids of any type.

[Tommo]

Thanks For The Infomation Merrilyn,Its Much Appreciated,If You Could PM Me With Some Of The Shops That Can Get Them In That Would Be Great :)

So How Do You Keep Your P.H So Low ?
Also Are You Using Any Peat Through The Filter ?

Thanks :D

I Havent Set My Tank Up Yet As I Guess I Still Cant Decide Between Keeping Altums And Discus "I Like Browns And Heckles" I Dont Like Any Of The Fancy Discus!
But Also, Please Dont Think That I Am Wasting Your Time, In Asking Questions. As I Am Keen To Know What I Am In For With The Altums :)

Thanks Andrew :D

[Merrilyn]

You're very welcome Andrew.

I'm more than happy to see someone asking questions first, rather than jump in feet first, and ask us to help with dying fish.

If you know the problems, you're less likely to make mistakes.

I have no problems keeping the pH low (the reverse is often the case LOL) Our Melbourne water is so soft, low pH comes naturally. Keeping it stable is the tricky thing. It's a fine balance between a little coral sand, to buffer the water, and indian almond leaves and peat moss to soften the water and lower the pH.

[samir]

I'll end up killing them, won't I ???

[Merrilyn]

Samir, you'll have no trouble mate.

Just keep them away from your heckels.

On second thought, better send your heckels to me so you're not tempted to put them together :D

[samir]

Just keep them away from your heckels.

On second thought, better send your heckels to me so you're not tempted to put them together :D

:shock: :shock: there's a 99% chance I would mix them up, how did you know ? :lol: :lol:

I'll send you a batch of heckel fry :P

[Merrilyn]

I'll send you a batch of heckel fry :P


Haha cheeky devil.

Sure, but only if you'll accept a batch of fry from me :wink:

I do want it to be fair :lol:

[scott bowler]

i will take a batch dont care witch one of you i get it from hehe

[mistakes r crucial]

So where's these Heckel fry? Waiting, waiting, waiting!
MAC

[Merrilyn]

LOL

MAC I thought you'd be the one showing us how to do it :lol:

Mine don't seem at all interested in anything but food at the moment, but I'm going to try samir's idea of dropping the pH to 4.5.

[mistakes r crucial]

Not yet but wait til I get the ponds sorted out, then you guys might have a competition on your hands. Just getting the first 10 tanks set up now after a nice long break, no Discus to speak of I might add, just L numbers.
MAC

[BSW]

Hi Merrilyn -
How are things in Oz ?
Hope you and your fish are doing well !
I would like to ask to use your Altum instructions here in the U.S. also (giving you credit for the writing of course)
But there has been a rage lately of those buying Altum here, and of course they kill em' cause they think they are just like keeping any other Angelfish. What you have written is pretty frank and complete and well written. I would like to encourage "wild" keeping in my Angelfish circles but, I would like for those that want to try, to have some clue what they should be doing for the fish. Instead of just bringing them home and plopping them in a tank of domestics !
Altum certainly aren't the easiest fish on the planet. But are so easily chosen because of their beauty. I'd like to see a few more get the chance to make it, instead of plummeting to their death, by purchasers not having any idea what difficulties they are up against.
BTW, I hope yours are well, you've done such a nice job with them -
BSW

[BSW]

Merrilyn -
I went ahead and posted it.
If it's not O.K. let me know and I will remove it.
You can find it here -
http://www.awforum.net/angelfish/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13987
Thank you -
B

[Merrilyn]

You are more than welcome to publish anything I have written here BSW.

I hope my experience can help others to successfully keep altums.

[BSW]

Thank you ............
B

[finlandaq]

Hi All,

I have few Altums for sale. Will post more details shortly!!

Rav

Finland aquarium/ Aquatic Escape

[Tommo]

LOL an old thread i know but .......

Some one is getting excited ;)

[Merrilyn]

Gee Tommo, I wonder why LOL :blob

[Tommo]

Well .... ya know ;)

Some sensational aquarists "who we shall remain nameless" Due to legality reasons LMAO!!
Is helping a poor run down silly stupid old bugger like myself !

So for that reason the persons name, shall be kept in the up most confidence,until such time they wish to reveal their identity ;)

Kind of G14 Classified "like the movie Rush Hour" LOL

cheers Red ;)

Andrew

[Tommo]

P.S gee i need to change my avatar :D

[HUN]

hi ! Merrilyn ,i have 6 peru angel about adult age , thats a pair just pair up recently but not seem strong bond,how do i get them to spawn? i feed them pellet and frozen brine shrime every day , should i feed them white worm or live food instead ? what water condition to spawn them?