Is soft water necessary for egg development?

[poimaster]

I have a pair who have laid eggs 8 times.
They are about 12 months old.

Everything seems to go well. The laying and fertilisation looks good. The pair fan and stand guard as they should.

The first couple of times the eggs got fungus and in their attempts to keep the site clean I think they ended up eating the eggs as the first couple of batches only lasted 48 hours.

For the later batches I dosed with Meth Blue and this did stop fungus. The eggs lasted for the 60 hours but none hatched. The male and female stood guard, seemed to know by 3 days that nothing was going on and ended up eating the eggs.

The eggs were a orange colour when laid. Some turned a little white and were picked off.

The pair spawn on demand with a 50% water change. I use adelaide tap water treated with Prime. The water is neutral and slightly hard.

My question is, I read somewhere that soft acid water is needed for egg development. Is this the case? I thought it may instead be just a young pair and fertilisation not taking place.

Any thoughts?

[Xtreme]

Hi there,

Can you put another male in there?

[poimaster]

Hi there,

Can you put another male in there?

Unfortunately I don't have another mature male, maybe in time...

[jbickel]

did you have any filters near or on while the male was fertilizing the eggs?
I have found that everytime my pair have spawned and I have been around I have turned off all filters so there is no current. this has made for a far greater number of eggs being fertilized...
But you must be sure that both discus are not infertile to start with...

[jbickel]

Oh and another thing my water is mainly rain water which is soft and has a low PH 6.0 to 6.5 I do believe that soft water and low pH conditions are a better environment for breeding.

[Merrilyn]

Okay, a few things come to mind.

First, are you sure that you have a definate male and female. Sometimes two females will lay eggs and go through all the motions of fanning and guarding. Check out the breeding tubes. They should be quite different. The female's tube blunt and fat and round, like a pencil (only not so large of course) and the male more of a "V" shape and not quite so large.

Secondly, at twelve months, they are still a young pair, and the male may not yet be fertile. Female mature sooner than males, so he may just need a little extra time.

Third is the water. Current is important. The breeding tank should have little current. The milt is sprayed into the water by the male, and it needs time to fertilize the eggs before being washed away. Having said that, your water also needs to be soft to allow fertilization to occur. Hard water will prevent the milt from penetrating the egg.

If the water in your area is hard or even medium-hard, you will not get fertile eggs, and you may need to resort to using a RO unit to reduce the salt and mineral content of your water.

[poimaster]

Thanks for your response Merrilyn, very informative.

>First, are you sure that you have a definate male and female.

Yes, confirmed male and female, very different breeding tubes. I also have used Andrew Soh's book as a reference to check and the tell tale signs are all there.

>Secondly, at twelve months, they are still a young pair, and the male may not yet be fertile.

Agreed. They are a beautiful couple though and I'd like them to succeed so I'll give them time

>Third is the water. Current is important. The breeding tank should have little current. The milt is sprayed into the water by the male, and it needs time to fertilize the eggs before being washed away. Having said that, your water also needs to be soft to allow fertilization to occur. Hard water will prevent the milt from penetrating the egg.

I really hadn't thought of this, thanks. Really good thoughts to consider. I've added peat to the top filter and ensured that there are no currents.


Pic of the happy couple attached, male on the right

[poimaster]

did you have any filters near or on while the male was fertilizing the eggs?
I have found that everytime my pair have spawned and I have been around I have turned off all filters so there is no current. this has made for a far greater number of eggs being fertilized...
But you must be sure that both discus are not infertile to start with...

Thanks for the advice jbickel - will do this too next time

[jbickel]

Lady red I think that it would be beneficial to add your answer in the breeding
basics Sticky as it describes what water conditions are also needed to succeed in breeding and it also describes the fertilization process.

[madaboutfish]

Hi poimaster,

I have been having the same problem as you are. I use a TDS meter and the water reading of my tap water fluctuates between 210 ppm and 450 ppm. When the water is 250 - 450 ppm my pairs either will not spawn or the eggs will not be viable. When it is below 250 ppm or I use RO water most of my pairs successfully raised fry. So assuming that you have a viable pair water hardness seems to be very important factor.

Nick

[poimaster]

Hi poimaster,

I have been having the same problem as you are. I use a TDS meter and the water reading of my tap water fluctuates between 210 ppm and 450 ppm. When the water is 250 - 450 ppm my pairs either will not spawn or the eggs will not be viable. When it is below 250 ppm or I use RO water most of my pairs successfully raised fry. So assuming that you have a viable pair water hardness seems to be very important factor.

Nick

Thanks Nick,

my water is 285ppm that is after adding peat to the filter. This time round I made sure water wasn't flowing near the pair and what do you know ...

I have wrigglers! Thanks all for your help.

Jeremy

[poimaster]

.. and wrigglers that parents had transported to the other side!

[Merrilyn]

Heyyyyyyyy

That's wonderful.

Congratulations. :P

[scott bowler]

poimaster
well done great pics too

[djceri_g]

How are the wrigglers getting on???

[poimaster]

How are the wrigglers getting on???

They were doing really well until my 2 batches of brine shrimp didn't hatch - the fry lasted over a week living off the parents. Ground beefheart and bloodworm didn't work... much panic but sadly ended up loosing them. Have practiced since and got the salinity right and am purchasing liquid food to supplement. The pair are constantly at it so am hopeful.

At the moment have the pair seperated feeding them up. Establishing a separate soft water tank with lots of peat. Should be ready for them in a couple of weeks and we'll try again!