Can someone please help new discus sick!

[magic-city]

Hello,
Please, can someone advise me as to what should be done…
I just received our first discus…yesterday (7-3-07)
We have 22 discus….two sizes (11 discus Half-dollar size) (11 dime-size)….they came from the same private breeder, using over-night fed-ex. He used Jungle Bag-Buddies inside their bags for shipping them, which seemed to really mess them up for awhile…especially the smaller babies?)
Both tanks are fully cycled aged set-ups….with no current residents except the discus, bare-bottom with a few potted plants and plastic plants and bog-wood (from pet-store). I do 20% water changes every other day. As I have offered food, which they still have almost no interest in; I remove all uneaten food off the bottom, after 30 min. Feeding what breeder said they have been feed (frozen beef heart, bloodworms) I tried adding fresh-squeezed garlic on food…also tried some brine shrimp frozen….very little is being eaten? Frozen feed brand = Hikari
Both tanks water stats today….
Temp = 86 deg F
Ph: 7.3 = 1/3 RO water 2/3 aged tap
Hardness = 7 deg
Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrites = 0ppm

(Tank #1)
When they arrived the dime-size babies were all gathered at the surface, swollen gills, rapid heavy breathing, fin-rot, ick parasites…..nine of them remained shaking and quivering at the surface all day yesterday…
today they are only three at the top (fin-rot is getting worse) (I have removed these three into hospital tank) (treating with mardel Maracyn-TC 250mg Tetracycline Hydrochloride per-directions) Maybe this is making them worse?
A few of the babies in the main tank dart and swim quickly (not in response to noise/movement from us)
(Tank #2)
The larger discus are doing better than the babies, some minor fin tears and ick along with a few of the fish with very heavy breathing and limited movement/response)
All discus are still not eating, (some pick but not much actual eating). (they are not very active and most are grouped up) and remaining very low to the ground/floor of the tank. Some of the larger discus have started to get their red-eye and loosing stress bars…but others are still dark, heavy stripes, dark eyes, heavy breathing.

I wanted to avoid using medications for these discus…but their condition seems to not be improving with 31 hours later?? Is this all normal shipping stress that one should always expect from discus? What should I do? Please can someone advise me as to what I should do for these poor babies??? Is there a safe medication for the young dime-size discus?
Please any comments/advise are greatly appreciated…thank you for your time

[magic-city]

Additional message:
They appear to have okay feces in the shipping bag…brownish/black no white stringy stuff….
Not much feces right now that I can observe due to their lack of eating….I don’t see signs of major internal parasites. Their foreheads seem nicely concave.
My water stats are very close to what stats the breeder gave me….
Also, I acclimated them very slowly…approx 1.5 hours ½ cup of my tank water addition every 20min 4x

[Merrilyn]

Hello magic city, and welcome.

I'm not real sure what Jungle Bag-Buddies have in them, but I assume it's something to provide oxygen. I'm not in favour of adding anything to the bag when shipping, other than pure oxygen, and a drop of "Prime" made by Seachem, to neutralize the ammonia which builds up in the bag.

From what you're saying, it seems that your fish may be suffering from ammonia poisoning. There's not a lot you can do other than support the fish. Unfortunately, there's no cure. All you can do is give them the best conditions possible, with clean water, and warmth and lots of oxygen in the tank.

Ammonia burns the gills, making breathing difficult, which is why the juveniles were hanging at the surface.Add an extgra airstone or two to the tank, so that the water is saturated with oxygen, and do small water changes every day.

You've done everything right. The problem happened in the shipping bag long before you got them. Good luck with them.

Have you informed the breeder of your problems?

[apistodiscus]

The breeder you bought your fish from should be hung, drawn and quartered. The fish he sold you are much too small to be sold, never mind shipped. A discus should at least have a diameter of 2.5-3'' before being sold and shipped.
If they had Ichyto one could assume that they contracted it during shippin (temperature drop and stress) but fin rot doesn't develop over night. I am a bit wary when it comes to treating fish with antibiotics unless it is absolutely neccessary. Antibiotics have the rather nasty side-effect of killing off your filter bacteria and hence you will loose your bilogical filtration. There are plenty of off-the-shelf remedies that will work just as well. I don't now what is available in your part of the world but I should think that you get Tetra products(.TetraMedica GeneralTonic). JBL and EsHa also to very good remedies.

Your fish are stressed hence the darkening and the darting movements. This will pass with time. In the meantime try to dim the lights over your tanks.
You could have ammonia poisoning. This can take a long time to heal and sometimes it never does completely. This will show in rapid breathing and the fish will grow very slowly. Should you have a dead fish, take out one of the gill rakes and have a look at the top of the individual filaments through a microscope. If it shows a little bubble on top of the filament your fish had ammonia poisoning.
For the time being, add an airstone.

Quite clearly your bigger fish are fairing somewhat better. A few torn fins are nothing to worry about and this will heal quite quickly. Just make sure your water stays healthy and you shouldn't have any problems. I always add an Indian almond leaf or two to the tank. This seems to speed up the healing process.

I wouldn't worry too much if the fish aren't eating properly. They generally take some time to get used to their new environment and food.
Even a week without food shouldn't be a problem but your small fish might be in trouble.

I would definitely get on to the guy you bought the fish from and at least demand some sort of a compensation and replacement should the fish die. But I still can't get over how he possibly could sell a fish the size of a dime...

[magic-city]

Merrilyn and apistodiscus

thank you so very very much for your help! :D
I have posted two places in here...sorry about that...I started in here and then I realized I should be under heading "disease and Illness"
Still trying to figure out all this stuff in here. :oops:
[/quote]

[magic-city]

oh... I asked if shipping was okay with discus...he said so (30yrs experience)...he has sold other auctions of dime, quarter, halfdollar....?

That was what I was thinking that maybe they were just too small/young.
lastnight I tried to look on-line regards to this...I did find info saying what you have said. Also they said that small discus should eat within the first day...! They are not eating hardly anything...there is a few that pick and spit...rest show no intrest at all! (now on three full days @ 1:30 today)
Any advise on this?

I did turn above tank lights off yesterday and today...only room light is on. I am sure glad that I did that.

[magic-city]

You could have ammonia poisoning. This can take a long time to heal and sometimes it never does completely. This will show in rapid breathing and the fish will grow very slowly. Should you have a dead fish, take out one of the gill rakes and have a look at the top of the individual filaments through a microscope. If it shows a little bubble on top of the filament your fish had ammonia poisoning.
For the time being, add an airstone.

okay I did add extra airstone yesterday to each tank.
how strong of magnification microscope do I need to see this?
do you have more information on how to do this? Pictures of what I am looking for? sorry I have not ever needed to do something like this...

I thought they were getting better because next morning they dropped from top except three still at surface and two have died the next morning...the larger ones stop laying on the bottom....not moving a lot....but no longer at the bottom and some have improved in coloring so I let breeder know they are better but later that next day I could tell the babies especially three still at surface had major fin-rot compared to just the edges of fins jagged...it was for sure getting worse....that is when I placed those three in hospital tank and started antibiotic...the others in main tank still have fin rot but seems to not be getting worse.

[magic-city]

Yes Merrilyn,
I will do water change today and keep on doing every day....20% okay amount....I only have this amount for aged water?
I did increase temp last night (now @ 88-89) should I go higher?

This is how they were shipped:
I assume from both responses this is not normal condition for discus health when they are shipped?

Could someone tell me what is normal/common effects on discus from being shipped…your experience with via mail-order discus?

Are problems from the medication added to the bags? (Bag buddy tablets)>?

Shipping as follows: 4 bags total one heat pack…the heat pack was still very warm for many hours after their arrival…however, water was cool in the fish bags approx 77-79 deg…a little newspaper, some bubble wrap, double bag (thicker than what pet stores send fish in?)There was no words like ( live-fish) wrote on the box…only thing found on the box was (“perishable” sticker on the box)

these were the fish per each bag...
1.) 11 dime size
2.) 3 half dollar
3.) 4 half dollar
4.) 4 half dollar

The total water was a gallon or less….because total shipping weight was 8lbs

I thought this was all very well done….but maybe something was wrong with the shipping?

I have never got fish this way...i dont know about shipping...


I'm not real sure what Jungle Bag-Buddies have in them, but I assume it's something to provide oxygen. I'm not in favour of adding anything to the bag when shipping, other than pure oxygen, and a drop of "Prime" made by Seachem, to neutralize the ammonia which builds up in the bag.

From what you're saying, it seems that your fish may be suffering from ammonia poisoning. There's not a lot you can do other than support the fish. Unfortunately, there's no cure. All you can do is give them the best conditions possible, with clean water, and warmth and lots of oxygen in the tank

Thank you for your time
Regards to the medication....(yes I also use Prime... :D great product...have for years now)\

the medication/other from Jungle called (bag buddy tablet) this is what the gentlemen said he added one to each bag of fish. (I cannot find ingredients for this product)
any ideas??
I think I will try placing call to Jungle to inquire...though not sure if they can answer....no stores here carry this product..
The water was fully blue colored. When I saw the condition of the fish I used my kit to test the bag water it showed ammonia as 0ppm?? I was surprised to see this…I figured there would be some level of ammonia especially with the fin rot? can this alter reading of ammonia?

However, I did find medication directions for this product said one tablet per gallon of water! the fish were nowhere near a gallon maybe a 1/4 gallon or much less. (4x recommended dose) breeder said one per bag was added....advised me that this medication might take awhile to wear-off...I think maybe it has a sedative in this?


I don't now what is available in your part of the world but I should think that you get Tetra products(.TetraMedica GeneralTonic). JBL and EsHa also to very good remedies.
oh I dont think so....I will look up Tetra medications ect...?
Jungle is widely available here also mardel some other various brands here and there.
what could/should I use?

:cry:
I am so sad to hear that some may never recover and this would cause such problems...not a good start into discus...and they (the poor discus) suffered. :cry:
do you mean they might always breath like this? will they have more health problems due to this? Is there any hope of ever raising a few spawns from these?

I can do daily water changes....4-5x a day feeding...removing uneaten food after every meal....is there hope?

sorry so many words...

[apistodiscus]

Hi Magic City,

I have to be honest here with you but the breeder you bought them for is not exactly where I would be buying from. That's putting it mildly....

To have a look if the fish had ammonia poisoning you will need a pair of fine scissors or scalpel to remove the operculum (gill cover). this will expose the gill rakes. They look like a white U with a lot of red gill filaments attached to them. Hold one rake up with a pair of tweezers and cut the rake at both end attached to the body.
You won't need a very high magnification. A very good magnifying glas will actually do the trick in some cases.
But you will have to do this in a couple of hours after the fish's death.

I'm still not getting over the breeder. But you should learn from your mistakes. I would be very reluctant to buy discus by mailorder. I need to see the fish I buy and I need to see them feeding and cr**ping.

It is not advisable for a newcomer to buy small fish. Half grown and if you can afford it bigger is what any decent breeder will tell you to get.

As regards what you should do know. Less is probably more. Temp up to about 31-32 degrees celcius. Keep the airstone going and all you can do is hope for the best. A stable environment is the most important thing for a discus. Did you test the water (by far not enough of it) the fish came in. Your breeders local tapwater might be close yo what you have but he might use RO or rainwater which will be softer and more acidic. Try feeding them chopped up earthworm and whiteworm. Bloodworm might also work but is not very nutritional but might get them to feed and you can introduce other foods then.
I don't feed beefheart but only seafood mixtures. But that's a discussion for another day.
Keep us posted and don't hestitate to send me a pm should want more help or more of an in-depth explanation.

[benjohnson]

11 fish in one bag sounds like a lot, the ammonia would have built up pretty rapidly in those conditions. That coupled with the fact they are way to small to be shipped like that , its no wonder you are having the problems you have .

Hopefully it will all work out ok and you wont lose any more .

The breeder you got them from , quite frankly needs a slap. If hes got 30 years experience, then he should know better.

As Merrilyn/Apisto said, airstones will do a lot of good here. You also dont want the temp too high as it eliminates oxygen from the water, so you could go too far the other way . 29-30 should be fine, possibly raising it to 31 to curb the other systems. might be advantagous.

Best of Luck ,
Ben