How many can i have?

[vyberman]

Hi

I'm just starting my first discus tank.
Its 140 liters with external filtration, fully cycled and has been stable for a few weeks now.
The water quality is just as it comes out of the tap at the moment (PH 7 GH 14) As soon as I have the rest of the fish in place I intend to slowly bring the PH and hardness down with RO water ready for the discus.

So far I have:
13 cardinal tetras
13 harlequins
1 male ansistrus timennki (i will be adding a female as and when i find one of the same species)
5 Armano shrimp (for cleaning)
I have a pair of blue rams which I am thinking of moving into the tank.
I would also like to add a flying fox who i will call hienken, as he will reach the parts the other cleaners don't reach (i apologize for my humor)

I have also added bog wood caves for the bristlenoses and planted the tank so that some of the taller more leafy plants bring down the light level to make the discus happy.

I Intend to buy younger fish and grow them. So I am prepared to do water changes 2-3 times a week while they grow. But I would like to bring that down to once a week when they are grown.

So with all that in mind how many fully grown discus would the tank hold?
And how much water would I expect to have to change every week? (I'm aiming for 1x30% change per week)

[ILLUSN]

i'd put no more than 4 discus in such a tank, even then your tank would be a little over stocked

[vyberman]

I did sort of figure that but needed it conforming by those who know more than me.

Problem is i know what i'm like, there is a 99.9% chance im going to shell out for a tank twice the size :)

[scott bowler]

vyberman
welcome to the forum hope you can learn some things here we all do hehe. i agree with ILLUSN i would only go 4 at the most and yeah if i was you i would go a bigger tank hehe and like some of us here not just 1 lol . Good luck with it and put some pics up soon we love that here

[the german]

and watch out for you shrimp :D

[vyberman]

Having thought about this stocking issue I have another question.

Given that 4 discus would overstock the tank. Which is the most limiting factor? The space the fish have? Or the bio load on the system?

If the problem is the the load on the tank, then could i get round it by plumbing a sump tank in with extra filtration and an extra 50 liters of water?

It would also give me an intersting project to work on :)

[djceri_g]

this guy has only 140 liters, this isnt enough for 4 discus nevermind all the other fish aswell. they require 40 liters each.

[ILLUSN]

40L each is for adult discus, even then with good husbandry you can go over, dads got a 160L with 8 adult discus and they are the helthy many of them now approaching their 9th bday. juvis will be fine in there till they grow up, as for a limiting factor, there is the physical space each fish requires, in addition to the bioload on the system. adding a big sump would help with the bioload, but in overcrowded situations fish become agitated, and are prone to both illness and injury, not to mention fish in such a situation often become stunted.

discus need groups to be happy i would never have less than 4 discus in any tank. if you can get bigger that would be better. besides at the higher temps discus like most of those other filler fish will move on and there will be more tank for the discus.

[vyberman]

Thanks for the input illusn.
That was pretty much the question i was asking. If i get the bio load issue out of the way with a large enough sump tank, how much physical space does each require?

Looking at your answer, juvenile fish would be ok for a while in my tank, and their continued happiness would depend on how well they get along as they grow. So its a matter of being prepared to move them into a bigger tank or mix and match fish if problems arise. (although a bigger tank is both preferable and more likely)

The reason I was asking is due to my experiences with puffers. I have found that in a bland tank with few plants my puffers don't play happy families. So in that situation the fish become unhappy long before you reach the maximum bio load on the tank.
However when I planted the tank more densely and provided more different areas, they all got along so much better that there was actually room for a couple more, and they are all happy.

I am happy now to proceed and add four young fish, which should give me around a year to monitor them and prepare a new tank if needs be.
A year is about right for growing them with lots of good water changes isn't it?

(to tell the truth I have been looking for an excuse to have a tank built to fit a 5' wide alcove in my living room ;))

[apistodiscus]

140l is not a discus tank. Not even juveniles. They will not grow properly unless you do daily waterchanges. My breeding tanks are 50*50*50cm =125l. And I only keep a pair in each.

300l is a minimun for a discus tank. This will be enough space for 4-6 adults depending what other fish you want to have in with them

[djceri_g]

140l is not a discus tank. Not even juveniles. They will not grow properly unless you do daily waterchanges. My breeding tanks are 50*50*50cm =125l. And I only keep a pair in each.

300l is a minimun for a discus tank. This will be enough space for 4-6 adults depending what other fish you want to have in with themMay I ask what you are breeding

[apistodiscus]

You may :D
browns only at the moment since thanks to my water suppliers adding chemicals to my drinking water and not bothering to tell anybody I lost my other fish after a water change. I had red turqs and leopard skins.
Now I'm running all my water through an RO unit. Pain in the backside. I got so used to using my tapwater that I got a bit lazy, I suppose.

Getting some wild Tefe Greens and blue Heckels (my personal favourite) next month.
Hopefully be breeding them before Christmas

[vyberman]

See now this is where my confusion lays.

A lot of reports I hear tell me that 40L per fish is a sensible level.
But according to apistodiscus 300L is room for only 4-6 adults. Which works out to 50-75L per fish.
That also means that you would basically need a 5'-6' tank. Yet I have seen many discus tanks of smaller dimensions with many happy fish in them.

Similarly, on websites such as this one
http://rockymountaindiscus.com/Discus_Fish_Care.htm
They say 5 gallons per discus minimum. Which is 19L or 22.7L depending on weather your talking US or UK gallons.

So being new to discus, I am having difficulty getting my head round whats right and wrong? The only thing that seems consistent is that being new to it i should go for as much water per fish as i can for the sake of stability.

apistodiscus, are your comments based on physical space or the volume of water? What are your thoughts on a sump tank?
If i added a 60L sump then we would be talking about a 200L body of water 140L of which is space for fish. In your opinion would four discus be happy in there? (given the right care of course)

[ILLUSN]

there is no "right or wrong" the more space per fish the better, but again if your up to providing the correct care for them then you can overstock. your fish may never be the 8 inch dinner plates that some VERY GOOD breeders get to, but as i said they will still live a long happy life.

you cant really count the sump as swimming space for the discus, it does add to your total volume but the fish will never see it so for them it doesn't exist.

if you can get a bigger tank go for it if not start off with some juvis and enjoy

[Merrilyn]

Hello vyberman and welcome to the forum.

I can understand and appreciate your confusion.

Fishkeeping is not an exact science. Two fishkeepers can use different methods, and yet both be successful and breed and raise beautiful fish.

The "40 liters per adult fish" is a rough guide, designed to give an indication of what the fish needs in the way of water volume. It doesn't take into account swimming space.

140 Litres isn't a big tank, but four juvenile discus will be quite happy in there for several months, until you get a bigger tank up and running.

If you're like most of us, you'll want to keep more varieties and colours, and the only way to do that is invest in a bigger tank. You'll soon be suffering from MTS, just as we all do (multiple tank syndrome). :lol:

It seems to affect discus keepers more than most :wink:

Enjoy your new babies.

Discus are wonderful.

[vyberman]

hehe
I already have MTS.

I have a small but nice 80L community tank with blue rams, bristlenoses, neons etc.
I am also keen on my puffer fish. I have a small group of dwarfs in a heavily planted 50L tank with a shoal of ottos.

Just starting this 140L tank
And i had plans to build a 5' tank with a really strong filter to create a river scene.
But i think thats all changed now. The new plan being to build the big tank for the discus and i will move the rams into the 140L

That way the puffers can move into a larger tank and the old puffer tank can be a hospital tank. I figure its wise to have one about the place ;)
So while my tanks may or may not be overstocked, my house most certainly is :D

[Del]

I have a 150lt lightly planted tank with 5 discus and a handful of tetras and flying foxes, haven't had a problem with my discus since I brought my w/c down to 30%, twice a week.

They are not huge in size (not stunted) but are very healthy and happy. I'd love a bigger tank but don't have the room.

Many different opinions on here, but each to your own when keeping these beautiful and amusing fish! Good luck with your tank!

DEL

[pinay_discus]

hi. am just new with discus though ive read a lot of articles, forums, etc. about discus. i have a 20gal well planted tank.. also have 11neon tetras, 4 mollies, 5 platies, 9 female gups, 2 male gups and my new passion, 1 discus (which i bought just 2 days ago). Thus this kind of set-up will be ok with my discus? Im more passionate in taking good care of discus but no ideas where to give my other fish like the mollies and gups (i wana keep my tetras). Obviously dont have enough space for another tank. :( can somebody help / advise me as im in MTS right now (read the term in this forum) :)

bear with me as im new here... :)

Mabuhay! :)

[ILLUSN]

20gal well planted tank.. also have 11neon tetras, 4 mollies, 5 platies, 9 female gups, 2 male gups and my new passion, 1 discus

to be honest theres a few problems here, a 20 gal tank really isnt big enough for more then 1 discus (maybe a young pair only) and they prefer to be in groups, secondly livebearers (guppies etc) prefer harder more alkaline water (ph above 7.2), where as the discus like acidic water (6.0-7.0), also discus like the water hot between 27 (absolute min) and 30 degrees celcius, with such a small body of water a tank like that wont be able to buffer any sudden changes in temp or bioload. i have a 20 gal tank but i only use it as a bare bottom hospital tank, and only if i have 1 sick fish, its just too small for a discus/community tank, sorry.

[Erk]

So how long is it recommended to keep young discus in a "small" tank, before you really should upgrade :? I have 4 younger guys in my 180L and the more I read, the more I find out...this just isnt enough space :(

Im not exactly ready or able (baby soon & space) to upgrade to a bigger tank, and now I have these four guys and for the most part seem to be doing well

However, I treated with praziPRO a couple weeks ago....with the repeat in a week....then just this week, I treated with Big L, and plan to do it again in a week, and make sure the lights stay off for 24 hours....the problem is, 3 out of 4 of my guys are still flicking themselves on my decor, and more or less "digging" in my substrate with their mouths and "forehead" area. The two skinny fins that hang from below their bellies are always twitching

I just dont know what to do anymore :?

Very sorry for hijacking the thread...I will post my issue in a new thread in illness section...I am curious about when I really should think about upgrading to a bigger tank tho

Thanks very much