Seachem Buffer!!

[Ace1024]

I live in Adelaide, and as many know the water is very hard... I have a 200 ltr tank lightly planted, and decided to take the plunge with discus a couple months ago.

Due to the hardness of the water, i also need to reduce the pH. I tried Seachem Discus buffer with some one-day (primed) aged water, and put the appropriate amount of the buffer for the tank. I let it disolve in the holding tank for several hrs, then did a 40% water change. The pH went from 7.6 to 7.4. I thought to myself, great, slowly reducing over time will eventually make it 6.6......

2 hrs later, to my despair, the fish have all turned very dark and pale, and are hovering around the bottom without too much movement.

Panic almost set in, and i just finished doing ANOTHER water change, at 50% to dilute what i think to be the cause, ie. the buffer.

Can anyone help me with my plight to reduce the pH, or at least indicate how to use the buffer properly? I've been following the jar's instructions. One lfs said they simply used buffer with local tap water, another mentioned they use peat moss in the filter.

BTW, my ammonium and nitrate leverls are 0, pH about 7.5-7.6.

Signing out after a traumatic night, Ace.

[samir]

how hard is the water ???

[Ace1024]

i feel ashamed to say i don't have a testing kit. I do know that adelaide water is known to be high in hardness.

I'm looking into getting an RO unit, but prior to then, i'm not exactly certain.

[samir]

why don't you get a test kit before you decide on a ro unit ?

[scuba123cliff]

Hi guys just went and tested water as im from adelaide to the numbers i came up with are tap water ph7.4,71.6ppmkh,125.3ppmgh, rainwater ph 6.6-6.8 ,35.8ppmkh,71.6ppmgh hope this will help you with your problem.

Cliff

[DiscusEden]

Hi Ace,

Before we go much further, let me just say "DON'T PANIC". And yes, Samir, I can hear you sniggering in the background, but I remember you telling me the same thing & it helped.

I'm from Adelaide too. The important part is, where are your fish from? If they've been acclimatised to Adeliade water, then dropping the pH is pretty much irrelevant. Although it is good to have a lower pH, it's more important to have it consistant.

Ironically, though we are told that Adelaide water is hard, it actually has a kH (carbonate hardness) that is very low & needs buffering to avoid pH swings, which will affect your fish's health far more than a constant high pH. So a handful of crushed coral sand thrown in the tank might be helpful, though that is a side issue.

What water conditioner/ ager are you using? I have found that while it comes out of the tap at 7.2 - 7.6, once I add Seachem Prime, it drops to 6.8 - 7.0 consistantly. The other fun thing about our water is that the pH does drop if you leave the water stand overnight without chemicals.

The short version (and I could have come out with this first) is that Adelaide water is fine for discus as is, if you use a good de-chlorinator. Not making too many changes is better for the fish. The only necessity for a RO unit is for breeding, and that's arguable - I've seen them breed in tap water.

HTH

Oh, and rainwater doesn't have the nutrients needed to keep your fishies alive & healthy.

I'm no expert, but if it was me I'd quit messing with it, get some Seachem Prime & do small water changes (maybe 10-15%) over the next few days to get it back up to the pH they're used to.

JMHO

[Ace1024]

Discus Eden, your words of wisdom reassures me to no end.

Yes I do have seachem prime... should i put the water in a holding tank, add the prime and wait over night?

[DiscusEden]

Hehe wisdom. Good one.

OK, I know what I'm going to get for saying this, but I have a nasty habit of syphoning the water out of the 6ft, then sticking the prime in & shoving the hose in on a slow trickle. But with the temperature as it is I'm not game to do more than 10% that way.

For the smaller tanks I age it (after adding prime) & heat it for 24 hrs at least. They get at least a 50% w/c, so it's more important to have the same conditions.

Having said that, there are risks involved with the sticking the hose in method & I'm not advocating it - it's sheer laziness on my part - but has worked OK for me so far.

Your plan sounds fine. If the fish are poorly you could change a little tonight. Prime say that the chlorine, etc are neutralised within 10 mins of adding it. But I wouldn't do very large changes, just gradual.

Oh, and I take no responsibility if this all goes pear shaped - that's Scott Bowler's job. He's an advisor. I'm just telling you what I'd do.

HTH.

[scott bowler]

:evil: :evil: you are a naughty girl DE i dont need to hear about those things after all the hard work we put in to getting those fish right hehe :blob2 :whip

[DiscusEden]

hehe me bad. What you going to do about it, interstate advisor?

I hope you appreciate what I just got myself into here for you Ace...

Speaking of which, aside from telling me off (which I know I had coming, and they're all doing well, thanks Scotty!), do you have any words of wisdom for Ace, oh all-powerful one?

[Robdog]

We're just commoners in here DE. Best to leave it to the Advisors. ;) :lol:

I reckon everything that DE has said here is pretty spot on considering she is familiar with the same water you are using. Follow it to the letter and let all the blame lie with one person! hahahaha

[fish_r]

as u know i'm from Adelaide too and last i checked the water out of my tap it was around pH 7, but havnt checked it for a while. i do water changes direct from the hose too and have for over a year now. i usually do no more than 30% water changes and do that 2-3 times a week, filling slowly back up.
"usually over an hr to and hr and a half to top back up" and using enough prime to cover the full qty of the tank from empty.
i'm using discus buffer in my 100ltr tank with 2 heckles in it and last i checked the pH is was down to about pH 6. trying to keep it the same as my community tank for when i add them back in, i do the same straight water changes with them too with no problems so far adding discus buffer during the water top up...

when were talking about Adelaide water hardness shouldnt we be talking about " gH " ??? general hardness or am i wrong ? iv'e always thought when talking about how hard Adelaide water is every one is talking about gH ?

i also read some where "think it was here" that as long as u dont have a teperature variance of more than 2-3 deg u should't have problems with ich etc ? suppose it depends on how good ur heaters are too and how quick they get the temp of water back up to 30c ? and how big ur tank is etc etc...

[Ace1024]

My tank minus the gravel etc is about 200 ltr's, and currently contains 4 juvies and a school of neon tetras....

I noticed fish_r that you put enough prime for the entire tank, not just the amount you're going to exchange during the water change?

I've got about 80 ltr's in the holding tank; i've added the prime, and the pH reads 8.1! This is after 12 hrs aging.

[fish_r]

Hi Ace
i add enough prime as per seachems instructions for adding water that isnt aged, it says on the bottle something about if ur filling direct from the tap to use enough prime for the contents of the whole tank...
i dont age my water only because i dont have the room for an aging barrel, but this will change soon when i get my new tank...

are u sure ur pH testing kit/ probe is reading correctly Ace, cause pH 8.1 seems very high... iv'e recently gone back to using my pH test kit cause the cheap assed pH pen wasnt reading accurate, maybe try another test kit ?

[Ace1024]

Perhaps you're right fish_r... i might get a second opinion with another tester. Now where to get one, hmmm.

[DiscusEden]

We're just commoners in here DE. Best to leave it to the Advisors. ;)


Sorry Rob, you're probably right. But I thought if someone else had the same problem it was OK to say what I was doing? :oops: Sorry.

So I guess it's wrong to tell Ace that my pH test kit went all wrong when I was using Prime 'cos the Seachem website says it interacts with other brand's testing fluids & I bought a Seachem pH tster & found out there was no problem after all? Or is that just me not learning?

[Robdog]

Yes wrong. Go to your room and don't come back til your Albino has bred. :lol: :lol:

[DiscusEden]

Won't be long, she's working on it. And so are the whiptails if I can just get them in the same tank again. Slippery little beasts. Pffffft.

Anyway, what are you doing out? I thought you were sent to your room weeks ago & no-one let you out yet. Bad Robdog.

[Ace1024]

It's funny... just over time, the pH is gone from around 7.2 to 6.6... I added a few plants (discuseden, you're a champ), aged the water for longer periods, added a few spoons of salt, and i guess kept a vigilant eye.

The fish all seem to be very healthy and active, and if there was one i can take out of this, perhaps not to overdo the adding of chemicals etc to alter water chemistry ie. KISS (keep it simple stupid) ;)

Thanks everyone for their input, and this forum for being an invaluable source of information.

I think it's time to have a beer, and enjoy looking at the fish.