BIG L ????

[mich]

Hi all
Re: Big L
I have been reading about this product in some threads here, I have just used it for a skinny fish , who otherwise is eating and happy enough just not growing /gaining weight.

Anyway, Im sure I read somewhere that a one off dose would be enough followed a week or so later with Prazi. To cover all worms.

Ive also read that you should re dose with the Big L a week later too.

So a little confused now,

Do I :
a. treat with Big L once then 1 week later treat with Prazi once
b. treat with Big L then again with Big L then with prazi
c. any other combination ?????????????????????????

ps Sorry if i misunderstood the posts, I thought i had it right but then found another thread.
:?: Thanks

[ILLUSN]

week 1 big L
week 2 prazi (48hrs later 25% change, clean filter)
week 3 prazi (48hrs later 25% change, clean filter)
week 4 big L
after all that VERY hungry fish and no worms.

[mich]

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12829

Pls see thread above !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!post number 12.
Very worried, may loose fish
Me again, I unfortunately found this thread 1st when searching for answers on how to treat internal worm issues. NOTE dose recommended.
After treating my 6 Discus I then happened to stumble on another thread with diff dose rate ie 1ml to every 7ltrs.
The dose on the link (7ml to 10ltr is way more that the other and I have to say Im sure this is wrong as my poor fish are looking not very happy at all. At midnight last night i did emergency 60% WC and again this morning did another 40% WC. They seem a little better but still a shadow of their former selves ! I have no idea what the long term consequences will be if they make it ?

If I have mis read this post pls excuse but if not It may be wise to correct it.
Newbies like myself may stumble on this and follow it !
thanks

ps thanks for the info on the treatment ILLUSN.

[ILLUSN]

Mate dosage for BIG L is 1 ml per 7L of tank water 7ml per 10L is WAY TOO MUCH! I dont like this med or Prazi or metro but they are the BEST at what they do.
For now keep an eye on your fish, give good water changes (id say 25% daily) and then try again in 5-7days time with the correct dose 1mL wormer to 7L tank water.
hopefully your fish can hang on, the higher water quality from the changes will also help.

[samir]

LR must have mistyped it. its 1ml / 7 litres and change water after that. if you can put it in a beefheart mix its much more effective and you don't need the water changes. I'll try find the dose for you.

[mich]

well, so far so good... the larger ones have shown a little interest in food for the first time since dosing yesterday, and are a little more active again,
i will keep up the water changes and see how they go.
Thanks Samir the beefheart dose would be good I might give that a try once all is stable again.fingers crossed
Blue Diamond colour is coming back a bit now also went very dark !

cheers

[ILLUSN]

hey samir whats the food dose? is it 0.5g active Levamisole per 100g of food (ie 5g/kg)? as per MAC's post in the illness medication sticky?
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4547&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=20
if so using big l as a stock solution
1L bigL = 14g levamisole
1ml big L = 0.014g
5ml big L = 0.56g
so you would have to add 3.5-4ml of big L to 100g of beefheart?

[ILLUSN]

5ml big L = 0.56g

sorry guys 4ml Big L = 0.56g

admin please correct my pervious post

[samir]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA091
here's a link with the dose. approx 400mg per 100 grams do .5gm/ 100 gm should be okay. Its best to put it in feed.

here's what it says
Levamisole can be used both in the feed and as a bath treatment. One effective oral dose is 1.8 grams of levamisole per pound of food fed once a week for three weeks. One effective bath treatment dose is 2 ppm (mg/liter) levamisole for 24 hours, with a repeat treatment in two to three weeks.

[ILLUSN]

well done mate, good work finding the dosage. sorry but my maths was out (AGAIN!!!!!! :banghead )
4 ml is only 0.056g
35.7 ml = 0.5g (500mg)!
28.6ml = 0.4g (400mg)

that sounds like a lot of product for only 100g of beefheart, adding that much liquid increases the mass of the product by 28-35%, also do you think it would be too soggy?
Is it even possible to do this correctly with liquid wormer or do you need powder?

[samir]

sounds like too much with the liquid wormer :shock: better to do it in water. i dunno where you can get the powder

[fishgeek]

i think i have said this before, the reason for confusion is that writing dose's down as volumes is open to error , especially when the product being used does come in varying concentrations

i know the frequent user's here all mean the same solution
i believe that is a pig and poultry wormer

i use a 7.5% solution and i am sure there are other varying concentrations available

thats why samirs dose of 2mgs/litre of tank water is more accurate

concentration of original solution has no bearing, also any maths errors are the end user's not another forum members

andrew

where did you find the oral dosage , i havent one in my texts?

[fishgeek]

oh side effects of high dose's of levamisol are inappetance anorexia

[samir]

where did you find the oral dosage , i havent one in my texts?

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA091

cheers
Samir

[ILLUSN]

pay that Andrew, just with the stock solution i have (Big L) working from that conc to the final conc is the tricky part, if you mind me asking (and it's ok with forum rules) where did you get your levamisol?
do you know where i can get it in powder? (make mixing into food easier).
i found the oral dosage in MAC's post in the levamisol sticky (page 2 i think) in the illness and medications section.[/quote]

[fishgeek]

at work
and i am not sure if it comes as a powder form

as solubilty is quite good, and touch wood, i havent experienced the problems others have i just dose water

i would assume powdered formulations must be available, mike aka noddy would be better placed than me to help in austaralia on that one, though prehaps a large animal vet would know more


alternatively maybe aar and the solution just to make set lumps of medication?

andrew

[Kingkat]

Illusn, Mac used to get the levamisole powder from his vet. It was pretty cheap off memory about $50 for 500 grams. HTH.
Cheers,
David.

[ILLUSN]

Thanks Kingkat, will try to get some from my pharmacist mate.

[mich]

oh side effects of high dose's of levamisol are inappetance anorexia

:shock: so what if anything can i do to help the situation ?

they have been eating but much less interest than usual? they are still listless but getting slightly better.
doing daily water changes to keep clean and hope to stop other issues while they are down .
???????????????????????????

[ILLUSN]

Mich, ALL YOU CAN DO IS GIVE THEM THE BEST WATER QUALITY POSSIBLE!

Daily water changes with aged pre heated water.

Feed several times a day (3-4).

1/2 hr after each feeding give the bottom of the tank a quick vac with the siphon to remove all uneaten food.

Give them a few more days to recover and then start treating with the correct dose. If you are using Big L the dosage is 1mL per 7L tank volume.

Dont worry your fish will be fine, and they will love the cleaner water and the extra food.

[Kingkat]

I would probably give them more than a few days before re-dosing.
Cheers,
David.

[mich]

:roll: things looked to be better but now the tank seems to be going through a mini cycle ? it has been stable for ever, so i can only assume its the meds! happened to smell the water this morning to check and OHHH Crap, did ammonia test and yup ammonia, did 40% WC, thats all the water I had ready, made me late for work too! made up new WC tank and will change heaps tonight asap. fingers crossed..
yup i always preheat and set ph etc etc before WC anyway but only had 40% available this morning.

I hate seeing them distressed, theyre usually like little puppies wagging their tails looking for food in the morning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Merrilyn]

Oh Heck :oops: so sorry for the typing error Mich. Must have been having a mental blank when I typed that.

The correct dose is and always has been 1 ml per 7 litres of tank water when using Sykes Big L Pig and Poultry wormer. You'll find that's what I have previously advised in all the information threads. Can't imagine what I was thinking when I typed that.

Thanks for the info re overdose fishgeek. From what you said about lack of appetite, I gather that will resolve now that the medication has been removed from the water, and the fish will experience a full recovery?

Mich, don't redose with anything just at the moment. Give your fish a rest for a month or so, with lots of good food and clean water.

[fishgeek]

yes they should recover with water changes as have been done

i have read(internet so not realiable) of upto 10mgs/litre being used as short term bath without adverse effects

unsure of contact time

andrew
i also know other members here have had some bad experience's with levamisol too so there maybe other water? factors that jhave some bearing

[mich]

hey all

Sorry for the late reply, Ive been too busy at work etc etc to get on.
Hey Merrilyn, not too much harm done in the long run, just a minor heart attack on my part ! :P was just a coincidence that i found that thread before any others and was keen to act. sod's law
Ive been madly doing WC and the Ammonia is back to constant 0. Nitrites havent moved at all so fingers crossed. They all look heaps better now, back to little puppies wagging tails for dinner again and eating out of hand again.will give them a break before going on with treatment.
Just wanna thank everyone for their reply's and info etc, it definately help to vent and get reassurance while your panicing ! :oops:

Cheers everyone.

[mich]

sorry, yes me again

when i do come to treat again , the Prazi:
is this only available in tabs ?
and can you please advise what the correct dose is?
ive read 400mg per 100gms food fed for 1 week ?????

is there a liquid alternative to dose water only or should i stick to food dose ?

thanks heaps AGAIN.

[fishgeek]

praziquantel can be used in water
at 2-10mgs/litre for upto a 4 hr bath increased aeration is required , this is probably easiest done in a small treatment tank
if bare bottomed you can then also see any excreta and or dead worms passed
so may be worth having a tank for the day after treatment to see effect and minimise the shedding of dead tape worm into normal tank, as mature segments of tapeworm are basically just egg sacks
repeated 3 times 5 days apart... i am sure you will see many different dosing regimes

if you wish to ensure accurate dosing of all fish then gavage (soft tube into upper digestive tract - can be stressful for fish and can damage oesophagus) then dose is 50mgs/kg of fish

i have higher in food dose's of 5-12 grams /kg which would be 500-1200mgs/100grams of food

andrew