Disaster!

[Greggy]

Something has gone seriously wrong :(

Since adding 4 BN's to my display tank last week (who where in my quarantine/hospital tank for two weeks without showing signs of problems) things have gone bad, really bad...

My carindals and rummy noses are dropping like flies, and so far 3 of my 6 Discus have died, and I'm about to lose the 4th, and I think I'll lose the lot of them. Yesterday the water tested 0 Ammonia 0.25ppm Nitrite and 0ppm Nitrate so I've got a biological problem f some kind going on. pH is 7.2 and the water is quite hard. Water temp is 29-30C. I've been performing 50% daily water changes since I noticed the cardinals dropping (usinig Prime at twice the dose) but the problem does not seem to be going away. I'm afriad they will all be lost soon :( I'm trying hard to get things on track but it looks like I'm fighting a losing battle.

What is really worrying me is that I've noticed in my both 80L hospital tank (1x Betta and 2 BN's) and my 6x2x2 main display tank have hundres (if not thousands) of tiny (less than 0.25mm) white 'specs' floating in the water, but they are alive! They seem to 'jump' or wiggle from time to time, and although the water is clear these things are everywhere!

I'm at a total loss about what is going on. Tonight after yet another 50% water change the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are all zero, pH is about 7.2 and these little wriggling things are in plague proportions! They actually make the water look 'messy'

Does anyone know what these things could be? I'm sure they have something to do with this very sad & heartbreaking time :( I'm looking down the barrel of a complete wipeout, which I'm not looking forward to, but it seems unavoidable.

Any ideas?

Regards,

Greggy

[Merrilyn]

I'm so sorry to hear of your problems Greggy.

As far as the little white flea like things, I have no idea what they are, but I have seen something similar on ponds out in the bush. I've never seen them in tanks, and I'm not sure if they are part of your problem. Are they coming out of the tap water, or are just multiplying in your tank. Plague proportions of anything is a real problem.

Your water stats worry me. In a mature tank, you shouldn't have any reading of nitrite. Nitrite is dangerous to fish. So, not sure what's going on there.

I'll tell you what I would do now, and that is remove any fish and filter from the quarantine tank, scrub it out thoroughly with plenty of salt, and refill it with tap water, add your prime and an airstone and put all the surviving fish in there. Change 50% of the water each day, because you will have no bio filtgration in there, just the airstone.

Try not to get any water from the contaminated tank into the clean hospital tank, and set up a bucket of tap water with one cup of plain salt in the ten litre bucket. As you catch fish, give them a thirty second dip in the salt water before transferring them to the hospital tank.

This will help to remove any external parasites and make sure that the fish are clean before they go into the hospital tank. Your bristlenose fish won't like the salt at all, so just give them a 2 second dip before putting in the hospital tank.

Once all the fish are out, it's time to turn your attention to the main tank. If I were you, I'd pour in half a bottle of plain (cheap) bleach, allow it to run through the filters and hoses and nets for the next 12 hours. Leave in any driftwood or ornaments, but toss out all your plants. Don't even think of trying to save them. They won't survive the bleach, and those horrible little bugs could well hide in them.

If you have gravel in there, stir it up so the bleach penetrates all corners of the tank. After 12 (or more) hours with the filter running,

take everything out of the tank and flush it well with tap water. Fill and drain the tank several times, and then at the last fill, add three times the normal amount of prime.

Thoroughly wash out your filter, discard any filter wool or sponges but you can reuse the noodles etc.

You'll have to start over again, and cycle your tank, unfortunately this time with the fish in there, but I think it's the lesser of the two evils at the moment.

Good luck Greg. Wish I could be more help.

[Greggy]

Hi Merrilyn, and thanks for your reply.

Overnight I lost the 4th Discus (a Blue diamond) however although the two remaining Marlborough Reds look slightly stressed compared to usual, they don't seem anywhere near as bad as the last 4 where over the last two days (two Blue Diamonds, a Red Turq and a Brilliant Turq). In fact the two Red's look 'almost normal'. I'm not sure if my large water changes have perhaps spared them or not, however the other 4 Discus seemed to go so bad so soon I wonder what really is the problem. I noticed the 4 that have died suddenly came down with patches of white skin on their sides, fins clamped shut, breathing very fast, and hiding in the corner and within 24 hours of this they where dead. The two Marlborough Reds don't seem to be being affected by the same symptoms???

The Cardinals and Rummy Noses have settled (no more losses) and as for the BN's SAE's Betta and Corys they haven't even noticed anything wrong at all - its business as usual for those guys. The hospital tank is the same, with the Betta and two BN's seemingly normal. Plants are growing well.

These tiny little jumping & swimming 'guests' remain a worry but I'm not sure they are causing the problem. Perhaps a dose of Copper (eg Snail Rid) will sort them out as this is usually lethal to invertebrates???

Thinking back we've noticed the tap water has had a strong smell of Chlorine lately, and with my religious water changes perhaps I forgot to add enough Prime (or totally forgot) and this might have knocked the bio filtering??? Can't really explain how else Nitrites showed up on the test, although the Nitirite result was only just above Nil (maybe 0.25ppm or less). Is this amount of Nitrite enough to have caused these losses? I suppose it is!

I'll perform another 50% water change, and test the copper treatment theory in the hospital tank, and if it kills off these uninvited guests I'll treat the main tank as well.

So far I'm sort of happy that the two remaining Discus look like being ok, although the loss of the other 4 has really got me down.... they where all doing so well too :( Just goes to show how quickly things can turn around, and how careful one has to be.

Will keep you guys posted.

Regards,

Greggy

[Greggy]

I've just been researching on the Internet as to what these little tank 'guests' might be, and I think they are Daphnia aka 'water fleas'. Everything that describes them seems to match what I am seeing (tiny, white in colour, appear to 'jump' through the water, not attached to fish etc)

Daphnia are not supposed to be harmful to fish (in fact my Betta's seem to like eating them) so perhaps me noticing the outbreak of these little critters and the deaths are a coincidence, and the real cause of the deaths is the Nitrite.

In some ways I'm sort of hoping this is the situation, as a) I can get the water quality back on track with water changes and time and b) I can wait for the Daphnia to die off or just treat with Copper as Daphnia are crustaceans and they won't like copper at all!

I feel like the worlds worst fish keeper right now, as its all pointing to me as the cause of this disaster :(

Regards,

Greggy

[Merrilyn]

Don't you dare go beating yourself up over this.

Very experienced fish keepers are having losses at the moment, caused by the horrible water conditions brought on by the drought.

I wouldn't be too keen on using copper in your tank at the moment. I think it might just add to the problems.

If you think those little guys are indeed daphnia (although in my experience they are usually a reddish colour) then it's not a big problem, but they did have to come from somewhere.

Think back, have you added any new plants to the tank lately, or have you been feeding any kind of live food. They could have hitched a ride with live blackworms or tubifex, or more likely on some plants.

Small fish usually relish them, so it's strange that they have reached such proportions with cardinals and rummy nose in the tank.

Another possibility is Bosminae. Another crustacean about half the size of daphnia, but usually black in colour. They appear like dust in the water.

Daphnia and Bosminae don't usually cause problems in a tank, so it could be that we're looking at something different altogether.

I'm glad things seem to have settled down for the moment. Let's just hope they continue to improve.

[Greggy]

Thanks Merrilyn,

Well the weekend has passed, and although I'm totally over water changes I believe they have saved the day, as my two remaining Red Marlborough's are back to normal, including chasing one another and eating etc. They are probably feeling a little lonely compared to the normal group of 6 Discus although they seem happy enough for now.

I've been changing the water twice daily 250 Litres at a time since last Friday (one around 8:00AM and again at 8:00PM) and the water is looking good. Zero readings of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate (this is a planted tank). pH is steady around 7.2, I'd like this to be lower but thats tap water for you. I've been very careful to use Prime at a double dose just to make sure. I've got carbon in the Display tank's internal power filter as well as the UV-C running to really keep things clean. I'll take the carbon out in a few days time.

You might be onto something in relation to the plants, as I did have some new plants in the QT for the same amount of time as the BN's and then transferred the new plants and BN's into the main tank, thats about when I noticed the beginnings of these little critters. Funny thing is I think they have been growing larger, and now the Cardinals, Rummy Noses and even the Betta is eating them, so their numbers have been decimated over the weekend. Its like the fish now know they are 'food' so they are gobbling them up. I guess whilst they were stressing with the Nitrite eating was the last thing on their minds.

I did end up adding Copper to the Hospital tank, and it has all but knocked the Daphnia? out. After a day the water was much clearer in the tankk, and then I did a 25% water change. The Betta and the remaining 2 BN's in that tank seem fine. I didn't get a chance to see how it was early this morning but I'll report back tomorrow.

At least I have saved two Discus, and they must be really tough compared to the poor others. Its funny, I always thought the Red's where likely to be the weakest of the lot... not so! I'll take all this on as a learning experience and from now on I think I'll quarantine all plants and fish for 4 weeks before they are promoted to the main tank.

What do you think of the practice of treating all new fish & plants with stuff like copper and formaldehyde/malachite green, worming medications etc before they go into the main tank? I just don'y want to get the main tank up running well again and introduce some bug/disease. Your thoughts?

Greggy

[the german]

sorry about your loss greggy.

medication without any signs of disease,i dont like it,i prefer to extend the time in the Q.tank uo to 8 weeks.

michael

[sammigold]

I agree with The German. I dont like medicating unless there is an actual disease. Extended quarantine time and I always thoroughly wash any plants etc before they go in to a tank.

[Greggy]

You guys are probably right, although waiting 8 weeks can seem like a lifetime! And it's quite difficult to buy new fish here in Perth and have them disease free, as most seem to come with the special deal of buy one fish get Ich for free! That might be fine for a tank full of tough fish, but a serious investment of Discus, Cardinals and Rummy Noses etc should be spared if possible.

So far the main tank is going ok, all the fish & plants look healthy again and the Daphnia (assuming thats what they are) are slowly being eaten (fussy Cardinals & Rummy Noses prefer flake food)

The Copper knocked the Daphnia around in the QT but it did not kill all of them... I think my Betta is doing a better job hehehe ;)

I'll be keeping an extra close eye on Ammonia and Nitrite levels, but so far they are still zero. Lets hope thats the last disaster I have for a long while.

Greggy

[the german]

yeah greggy i know what your talking about :? perth and discus hard way to find good ones,i needed 6 month to get 17 good discus and 8 of them i bought from melbourne.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Greggy,

Those white things swimming around your tank, have you considered that they might be Hydra? They will definitely kill small fish such as Tetras and in big enough numbers larger fish too, they sting them to death. Main reason I mention this is because your Betta is eating them, very few fish do eat them but from memory I think Betta's and certain Gouramis do.
MAC

[Greggy]

Quick update on the 'disaster'...

All seems good!

I've still been doing daily 20% water changes, and things seem to have settled down and stabilised again. Ammonia and Nitrites have been zero (or below detection limit). I'll continue with daily 20% changes until the weekend, then back it down to 20% changes every 2 or 3 days, then back to twice per week, keeping close track of water conditions.

I once read on Wet Web Media (an awesome site by the way) that there are not many (bad) tank conditions that a water change wont fix or improve, and I think they have really helped me out this time. Instead of a total wipeout I 'only' lost 4 juvi Discus and several Cardinals & Rummy Noses. Looking back when I noticed a few sick looking Rummy Noses I should have done some big water changes straight away and perhaps the losses might not have been as bad.

What all this has taught me is to be really really careful about remembering to add a double dose of Prime to all new tap water, as I think I somehow harmed my biological filtration and nitrite levels spiked as the tank was cycling again. Discus are fairly tough in general, but I don't think they can handle Nitrite as well as the average fish. I believe Nitrite is actually nastier than Ammonia, and from this experience I believe it!

Actually the tank is looking good, really good... I must place a few photos one day!

Regards,

Greggy

[mistakes r crucial]

Nitrite, IME, is far, far worse than Ammonia. It's an out and out killer and especially of fry. Big water changes will help fix many things and Rummynose Tetra's in a Discus tank are fantastic indicators of your water quality, if that little nose aint bright red then improvements can be made.

Discus are very tough and much tougher than most of us give them credit for but they still need a helping hand. Great to hear it's all back to normal.
MAC