Emperor tetra lumps

[DiscusEden]

Hi,

More questions, and I know it's not a discus question, but I'd like to pick your brains:

My emperor tetras (seperate tanks, seperate sources) have been getting red areas on their sides, which looks like burst blood vessels (like an alcoholic's nose).

Within 24 hours, it develops into a sore, which looks like the skin has been peeled off and there is a red mess of muscle underneath.

The fish looks increasingly distressed over this time, swimming head down, breathing heavily, then dies within 12 hours of the sore appearing. I've been culling them when I notice the first signs, in the hope of stopping it spreading.

What is it? What can I do about it?

TIA
:wink:

[fish_r]

iv'e posted ur question on the website of the shop from where u brough em from too DE, will wait for a reply there too...

[DiscusEden]

Thanks fish_r!

I'm wondering if it's a species thing, since it's come from totally different sources? Like the TB gourami thing I was told about (which may or may not be true).

[Merrilyn]

Oh gee, that sounds awfully like TB. Google mycobacter in aquarium fish. It can be transmitted to humans as a skin disease through cuts or wounds on the skin which comes in contact with tank water.

My suggestion would be to cull the lot, now, and sterilize the tanks.

[fishgeek]

alo could be anyother bacterial eruption, edwardsiella

ideally culture a freash wound , then that may cost more than starting again.. just seems a little mean

definitely hope they are still isolated in your QT tank

[Merrilyn]

Andrew I'm not familiar with edwardsiella.

Can that be cured with antibiotics?

[fishgeek]

yes - amny antibiotics so often whatever is at hand will work rather than needing a specific medication

usually it is gas forming infection and smells when ruptures
can cause bouyancy issue depending on where lesion may be

often look a bit like boils

[DiscusEden]

That's the one, looks like a boil.

Crap.

It's in the first and second lot of emperors. The first lot have been in the community tank from the beginning, all other species appear at this stage to be immune from whatever it is. The second lot are in the QT tank with some threadfin rainbows.

Haven't noticed a smell, but that could be me.

I can sterilize the bare bottom QT tank if you tell me how, but the community tank (6ft) - I just don't know where to begin.

There are only 4 left in the main tank, 11 in the QT, all asymptomatic at this stage.

If I somehow got antibiotics for the tank, could I dose the main tank with the others in there? Wouldn't this lead to killing the bio-filter & ammonia spikes which would be more dangerous than the infection?

I've successfully ignored it until now, and am happy to use that option if you like? But seriously, if i have to do something, I need clear advice as to what. I'd prefer not to cull my 4 discus & peps & all, or are you just talking about culling the emperors?

[ILLUSN]

ANTIBIOTICS WILL KILL YOUR FILTER MEDIA!!!!!!!
as a precaution you could replace 1/2 your bio media with amrid, ammogon etc etc to protect against an amonia spike, also lootrs of airation and keep the ph low (converts NH3 toNH4 which is less toxic) also dose with prime daily to keep amonia down.

[Merrilyn]

No, no don't cull all the fish. I was talking about just culling the emperors if it proves to be TB.

Andrew seems to think it may be edwardseilla, and he would certainly be the man to know (he's a vet).

His recommendation is to use an antibiotic, just about anything you have on hand would do, so you need to put all the affected fish into a quarantine tank and treat them there.

You can use tetracycline, which you could get from hyour LFS but it will definately wipe out your bio filter, or if you can get hold of it, metro would be ideal because it doesn't kill your bio filter or the other thing you could use is Waterlife Octozin.

Let me know what meds you can get hold of, and I'll give you exact doses.

[DiscusEden]

Thankyou! That's a relief!

I have Octozin on hand, and can start that tonight. I was going to put the rams (blue, gold, bolivian) in the QT tank tonight to treat for worms, along with one of the discus. Should I just put them all in, along with the 4 emperors from the community tank and give them all a dose of Octozin?

The discus had a course of Octozin that finished a week ago, but still has white poo - should I give it another course with the same?

I have prazi, Waterlife Sterazin or another Waterlife product that starts with a P at home as well. And I might have an in date script for Keflex lying around.

I could cull all of the emperors without too much heartbreak, but would prefer not to loose the other species obviously (phew!).

Forgot to say: the QT tank is a 75L tank. The community tank is a 540L, minus substrate, logs, etc.

[fishgeek]

althoug metronidazol is an antibiotic by definition
it would not be a choice of mine for anything other than protozoal infections, or for anaerobic conditions...the centre of a boil maybe.. there certainly are broader spectrum medications(ie whn guessing cover more options)

sulpha based ab's in feed
tetracycline has all the downsides of light/hard water deactivating
pencillins
kanamycin
rifampicin - may even have some effect against mycobacterium, is used for people in this , i think more readily available in sth asian countries
erythromycin
are all options..

because more common fish disease are gram negative( a stain technique that helps us split bacteria into crude groupings based on stain uptake)
most mamalian antibiotic choices are less useful ... unfortunately i cant give you a good best first guess , or statiscal suggestion for treating with any particular drug

if the metro is all you have to hand then treatment today with that in food(preferably) would be better than waiting 2-3 days to source something else

andrew

[DiscusEden]

Just got home from the LFS, where I got:

aquarium science aqua-cure tetracycline tablets @ 375mg tetracycline hcl
wardley's para-ex - 20mg trichlorphon tablet
wardly's triple sulfa tablets
live brine shrimp

Are any of those an improvement on the Octozin?

Here's the plan unless I hear differently:

Catch the 1 discus, 7 rams, 4 emperor tetras from the community tank, add to the 10 emperors and 4 threadfin rainbows in the 75L QT tank, dose with Octozin tonight & for next 3 nights, without doning w/c's as ordered on Octozin bottle. Cross fingers, try not to watch.

Does that sound right?

[DiscusEden]

Caught the fish, all in the QT tank. Have fed them live BS. Will treat with Octozin now.

If I can get an antibiotic, which of the above is preferable?

Forgot to add, the dark discus now has pale, almost white spots on it, although the skin does not appear to be broken. Can't get a good pic - have been trying, but left off 'cos I'm distressing him more.

Thanks again!

[Merrilyn]

From Andrew's post, I'd start with the tri sulphur.

I know the bottle says to add to the tank water, but if you can mix some in their food, that seems to be a better option.

Don't be too concerned about the dark discus turning pale. I'd expect that to happen after being moved to a bare tank. It's good that they're all still eating. That means you've still got a chance to get meds into the stomach where it will do the most good.

[DiscusEden]

OK, problem solvered.

Lost the last of the emperors tonight (4 in one hit). They really don't like that antibiotic!

I'm pretty much OK with losing them at this stage - at least they're not tying up the QT tank & I have some hope of emptying it.

Just a question - how long 'till it's safe to put the 2 bolivian, 2 gold rams & 2 threadfin rainbows back in the 6 ft? Do I have to do anything else to them first? (They've had 5 days on Octozin, then 3 days on antibiotic).

The only illness they've shown is a gold that got bloat & died before the Octozin was finished.

What do you think guys?