Black worms

[D.J]

Just wondering if any one has ever feed their discus with black worms?
I am tempted to try it as a very well known lfs in my area actually fed his dicus display tank which is full of beautiful discus with the black worm, just to prove to me that his culture of black worms are clean.

Have not seen a discus that was that eager to feed, like what I saw today.

Any respond will be good, and many thanks.

Donald.

[Essayons89]

Live blackworms would be fine to feed. I feed them every so often as a treat to my discus, angels and cories. All of them go crazy for the blackworms.

There is always a risk of introducing some sort of disease, parasite or pest into a tank through the feeding of live foods. As a precaution, I keep the blackworms in fresh, clean water. I change the water out every day with fresh, dechlored water for a few days before feeding them to the fish. Healthy blackworms will be lumped together, almost forming a ball of them.

Try it, they go nuts over them.

Bryan

[flukes]

I also feed black worms every now and then, though im a bit scared of desease so i soak them in a multi cure containg mech green and meth blue.

Not sure it really does anything but lets me sleep easier :wink:

Also helps young fish grow fast and induces spawning in adults.

Just dont feed too much other wise they wont eat any thing but.

[kalebjarrod]

i don't feed them black worms because i am paranoid of problems

i am never very good when my own fish get sick i lose more then i save so i try not to get the problems to start

just my opion though, but when my guys get a little bigger i will see rod @ sunshine and get his trick's, he's always breeding and if your local breeder uses them well i will give it a go too

[D.J]

Thanks for the input guys, reallr appreciate it.


I change the water out every day with fresh, dechlored water for a few days before feeding them to the fish.

If we do clean the blackworms every day for a few days before feeding them to discus, how long is it before they are not good (expired)?

Do you also keep them in your fridge? and how much do you feed them?
as I was on a site yesterday and this guy only feed them 2 blackworms/fish, which I don't think is enough.

Donald.

[mtchye]

Hi guys,

There are 2 ways to make sure the blackworms are 'clean' for your fish. If you buy small batches and want to clean them for short term (1 - 2 weeks) you can keep them in a shallow container with plenty of room, with just enough water to cover the worms. Plenty of aeration and water changes as often as you can do them. When you do water changes the trick is to blast the clump of worms with a stream of water tip the container on its side, the dead worms will float while most of the live ones will sink back to the bottom, pour off some of the water and replace.

For longer term you need a lil sponge filter and you can fill a tank like a 2 footer. Some ppl use a substrate, others don't, just maintain the water conditions and do those water changes. The worms can stay alive without food in colder water for quite a while. However you can feed them small amounts every so often too, just dont over feed as any deterioration in the water conditions can cause a chain reaction of deaths and some VERY smelly water ;)

I dont know about feeding them to discus. I am thinking about it. In my apisto tanks I have the worms in there all the time, and the apistos condition up very fast, and spawn often. They don't predate on the apisto fry or eggs either, and you really can't overfeed because they stay alive if you have enough O2 in the water.

However one of the local discus guys who is pretty experienced, says anecdotally that worms are a high risk of disease. The documentation out there is conflicting but there seems to be bit of research indicating that the worms are not a common host for parasites as many sites lead you to believe. The main worry I guess would be bacteria present in the worms, or developing in dying worms, so I guess thats what we purge them for.

In addition to this, I'm lucky in that my LFS does keep them in very clean conditions with lots of purging already. Also the wholesaler that cultures them does so without any fish in the water. I think alot of the old concerns stemmed from the wild collected worms which came from pretty dodgy waters. I doubt there would be many stores in Aus stocking wild caught worms these days... ;)

[kalebjarrod]

i was under the impression that thier are paarsites and bacteria present through alot of black worms that won't affect other fish only discus

hence the paraniod approach.

but hay i have been wrong in the past and i will probaly be wrong in the future

i would just make SURE i was wright on this, don't want to loose a grand worth of fish just because i didn't check it out properly first :wink:

[Bad Inferno]

I used to think I was doing the fish a favour...and got them worms once per week for 18 months.....Then my number was up, My wife fed them worms that had been sitting in merky water for a couple of days and within 2-3 hours two discus got very sick. It just ain't worth it ! and if you do feed them get some Metro for when they do get sick....as I said I lasted 18 months before it happened to me. Never again

[weird]

Hikari black worms are fine ... pinch ... wake up, hikari don't sell black worms ... steer clear for long term discus health I reckon ... my personal opinion. Nothing is more disturbing than a sick discus.

I feed my discus,

morning ... brine shrimp
midmorning / afternoon ... color bits
around 7.00 pm ... discus food/beef heart
9.00 - 10.00 pm ... blood worms (hikari)

They get 4 types of food in the day, no need to add something I would be worried about.

[flukes]

Yeah but live black worms are great for the fish if they are healthy.

It just takes a little more care too look after the worms.

[D.J]

I bought some black worms today and washed them over and over again eventhough the lfs assured me that they purge the worms many times.
Fed it to my fish and boy, did they go banana over it. :D
I heard black worms are very high in protein, is that true?

[kalebjarrod]

high in protein yes

also many other trace elements

such a fine line........... uhhhhhh i wish it could be simple

[sunshinediscus]

Tapeworms, eventually your discus will develop them if they are fed blackworms.

Rod

[D.J]

Thanks for all the input guys.
Tapeworms, how long before they will develop after feeding them?, even if I purge the water 3 times a day?
And can tapeworms be cured?
I've been feeding my discus blackworm for the last 3 days now, and they never looked better.

Donald.

[Essayons89]

Praziquantel can be used to treat for tapeworms by adding it to the food of the fish.

There is always a risk of introducing a parasite or other nasty to fish through the feeding of live foods.

Bryan

[sunshinediscus]

Hi Donald,

I don't think the tapeworms occur with everyone thats feeds them or even commonly but i know they can develop from feeding them.
I've personally witnessed them a few times, once from a friend's fish that were very bloated. He called me up and told me his 8 week old fry were very bloated , that is first thing in the morning even before a meal. I went to his house to have a look, cut open one of them to take a closer look and there were heaps of juvenile tapeworms. It really was amazing how many there were in such a small discus. He fed brineshimp and blackworms as the only foods since they were born.
Some other people also report them occasionally from the discus and when quizzed about diet the one thing they all have in common is blackworms.
But i know other people who feed a lot of blackworms that have never had any tapeworms in thier discus.
If you do decide to feed them blackworms then treat them with Prazi every couple of months just in case.

Regards

Rod

www.lewisdiscus.com

[D.J]

Thanks for the advise Rod, I think I'll stop feeding them Blackworms, I allready fed them Blackforms for the last 4 days, once a day, not to much though, do you think I still should treat them with Prazi, just to make sure? or should I wait for a couple of days before I treat them?
I bought my Discus back in may, and I've never treat them for worms, so I think I am due for 1 anyway.

Regards,
Donald.

[Merrilyn]

Much as I would like to feed blackworms, I just can't bring myself to take the risk. There are so many good safe foods out there, that for me, it's just not worth risking my beautiful fish. I can still remember the bad old days of tubifex worms and all the problems they introduced.

Why not try frozen mysis shrimp if you are looking for a new treat for your fish. A good high protein freshwater shrimp. Once your fish are used to it, they will rush to eat it every time.

[D.J]

Thanks Merrilyn, what about garlic? I followed one of your post to crushed it in to small pieces and mix it with beef heart and feed them to the fish, but they simply refused. So I ended up with a tank full of garlic, I had to siphon them out.
Howlong is it before they will accept them and is it best to feed them in the morning when they are most hungry?

Donald.

[kalebjarrod]

try adding garlic to your b/h mix well ground for easy eating?

[D.J]

Yeah that's what I did, except I used allready made beef heart mix that I bought from SLS, maybe I didn't ground them fine enough.
Do you use grinder for the garlic or just one of those garlic crusher?

Donald.

[Merrilyn]

Use only a very small amount of garlic and add it to your beef heart mix. When I am making about a kilogram of mix I will add 3 crushed cloves of garlic and put it all thru the mincer again. So it is only just a flavour. You shouldn't be able to see any garlic bits. It may take a couple of times for them to get used to it, but it is really good for them. My vet believes it is good for all animals and fish and helps them to get rid of intestinal parasites. But it must be freshly crushed garlic. Not the preserved stuff.

[sunshinediscus]

Hi Donald,

Yeah i'd treat with Prazi if you have never done it before, it is a standard treatment for new discus with many discus keepers.

To add to the garlic discussion, why not try garlic oil from the health food store. Thats a lot easier to mix into the beef heart mix and it doesn't make the water oily or cause a slick on the surface. I use 1 drop per 100grams.

Rod

www.lewisdiscus.com

[mtchye]

Good tips here guys, I'm learning heaps. Rod, with regards to the garlic oil, I understand that the ingredient we want from the garlic is released when the garlic is freshly crushed. I wonder if the oil will have the same amount of that ingredient? On that same note we probably dont even have to put in the crushed garlic bits into the mix, just the juices that drip out? I don't know either way, just wondering what others experiences are with this.

The white swan pair I got from SLS are now eating heaps of frozen bloodworms, but little else. I've tried discus dinner, sera flora, asst pellets, etc with no luck. About to go out to try to get some mysis or krill to get a little more protein into them...

Any tips on weaning these guys onto prepared foods? They seem hungry enough most of the time, always coming to the glass, but they only go after bloodworms.. lol... I wonder why? Could they have been fed worms exclusively where they came from (I understand they are imports)...?

Cheers
Vincent

[sunshinediscus]

Hi Vincent,

I remember reading an article by Jack wattley in a TFH magazine years ago and he mentioned that he uses the oil , can't remember all the advantages he quoted over the crushed garlic but i've used it ever since and seems to work ok. I agree with you about the juice being just as good, surely it would contain all the stuff that we want for our discus without all that pulp.

Rod

[kalebjarrod]

garlic in a fresh raw form would have to contain some extra fibre and surley some of the esential elements would be contained in the pulp in a solid form?

can jucieing or an oil format really produce all the goodness of freshness?

i don't know, just interested

[sunshinediscus]

Not sure about the freshness factor but i guess fresh is best as it for sure would retain the highest amount of vitamins etc. Doubt the fibre would be too important if your adding some other fruit or vege to your beef heart mix, prob not too important. I just done a quick google search on garlic oil and apparently 1mg of oil is equivelent to 3000mg of fresh garlic.

[kalebjarrod]

sounds good rod

i'll keep useing freash garlic, i grow it in the yard and it comes out a a great price now

FREE LOL

[D.J]

I bought TFH magazine September issue, where as usuall Mr Jack Wattley answers your questions.
In there he mentioned garlic is used to get rid of internal parasites such as Hex, but he only mentioned fresh garlic, the ratio is 1 : 4.
I'll try the garlic oil when I do my shopping tomorrow, can they be put on Discus dinner?
Just for those who don't know what discus dinner is, they are allready made frozen food that's sold at lfs, they consist of beef heart, veggies and other things.

Donald.

[kalebjarrod]

would it get absorbed into your granules a bit better

i guess it would be a trail and error thing, it is pretty strong from what rods just said, don't add to much

[D.J]

Can't fing garlic oil in liquid form, I tried health store and a few chemists, all they have is garlic oil in capsule form, which I can't be bothered in cuting them open each time I feed my discus.
Will try fresh garlic in small portion first, see how they go.