Breeding Room Setup basics

[Hail2Pitt02]

Hey everyone. I am again thinking about the setup for my discus business. My plan is to start with 2 or 3 different breeds. Each breed would start with 6-7 juvies in a 75 gallon tank. Once they start to pair off I would move them to their own 30 gallon tank to hopefully spawn. This is where my question comes in. I am wondering if it would be better to buy 2 or 3 large grow out tanks ( 200+ gallon) or a whole bunch of smaller tanks for fry. Logically the larger tanks seem to make more sense since the larger the water volume, the more stable it tends to me. Does anyone have an advice in regards to that?

Also I am trying to research some sort of automated water change setup. I am definitely going to have incorporate an R/O unit and probably something like Prime to neutralize chloramines (I assume our water company uses them but I will have to call to confirm). I will probably buy several large garbage cans to age water, maybe even custom make a really large container. Does anyone have a site that details how to set something like that up?

Also do most discus breeders (smaller ones) utilize a central filtration system, I know many use sponge filters for biological filtration and the need for mechanical filtration would be minimized keep the tanks bare, but the most effective manner to filter out the tanks is not clear to me.

Last but not least are there are refrence books out there on how to setup a discus room, small breeding facility? Any tips would be greatly appreciated

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Hail,

Wow, how many hours have you got? Some very large questions there.

Your first question about grow out tanks, 4ft tanks are my preference as you can easlily fit a full batch of fry in them for at least 2-3 weeks. I would always standardise in my fish room and not have all sorts of different sizes. IME you will eventually regret it. If you intend to have 6-7 juves of 3 different strains you will probably end up with at least 4-6 pairs so you will need alot more than 2-3 grow out tanks of any size, try double or triple that and you might be somewhere near the mark.

Your next question is the largest. Firstly, garbage cans, with the amount of pairs you intend to have will not cut it at all, you'll probably give up in quick time because it's all too hard. Changing water with any more than a couple of pairs of Discus has to be planned and made easy otherwise it becomes a real chore. A 1000 or 2000 litre aging tank with 6 pairs is the way I'd be going.

Centralized systems as opposed to individual tanks is a very big question and one that is really directed by personal choice. They both have advantages and disadvantages. When it comes to disease, individual tanks win the day but ease of use, pheromones for breeding etc slant in the direction of sumped systems. Water changes are much easier with a sumped system but you can still achieve both if you want to. You can have your bio via sponge filtration but have the water changes automated via a plumbing system. Cost is always an issue and running individual tanks can be quite expensive if you're running enough of them. There again, so is running 30,000 litre an hour pumps if you have enough of them. To my knowledge there are few books on setting up systems but that, to me, is half the fun. The cock ups will come thick and fast but at the end of the day you'll sit there and be so proud of what you've achieved it's more than worth it.
MAC

[Kingkat]

Mac, You are unreal mate. Cheers and beers to someone still out helping others even with what you have been going through.

[Hail2Pitt02]

Thanks Mac. Just wanted to know you are in my thoughts (and everyone else on my main fish board) through this difficult time. I like to think this is one of those tests in life we all must face, but if we came out of the tough times ok, you will be that much better off for doing so.

Thanks for the input, you definitely have given me some things to think about. 4 foot tanks are generally 75 gallon tanks here, which as you mention in an average spawn would be good for about 3 weeks. My question then is...then what? Seems like a lot of breeders I have looked up online move their fry after a few weeks to very large vats to raise them to the inch 3.75 to 5 centimeter range, then they are sold. Is that generally how most smaller breeders handle it that stage? It sounds like you use as many 4 ft tanks as it takes to grow out your fry until they are a good size for sale. I was thinking that perhaps if I had several spawns around the same time that I could add several different varieties of discus to the same large grow out tank. The larger tanks seemingly would take up less space would use less plumbing when connected to the central filtration system, and just in general be easier to maintain.

I am not so much concerned about disease. If I do a central filtration system I would plumb it so that if a tank was showing signs of a health outbreak I would shut off that tank from the filter and add its down canister until I could identify, isolate and eradicate the problem.

Wow, you suggest 2000 liters or so for 4-6 spawning pairs of discus. I really did not expect a number that large. I am not even sure what I could get to hold that much water, let alone what I could get to fit in my basement, lol. I guess where there is a will, there is a way, but what do you suggest that could hold that much water? Do you use that much daily or would that last a while. My next question is how do you refill something that large and still do you water changes. Depending on how much R.O water I need in relation to the tap water, that could take a while to refill.

The centralized filter system somewhat baffles me because I have never used a sump in any of my tanks. If you have a centralized sump system, do you have one sump for everything. That would have to be quite a large sump. Oh well...I guess I will have to make some friends with plumbers that can assist me in that project.

Thanks for the tips so far. If anyone has anything else I'd love to hear this. I hope I know what I am getting myself into. I think I do, it's kinda scary especially with a full time job already and a 90 minute commute each way but very exciting at the same time.

[mistakes r crucial]

[quote="Hail2Pitt02"]Thanks Mac. Just wanted to know you are in my thoughts (and everyone else on my main fish board) through this difficult time. I like to think this is one of those tests in life we all must face, but if we came out of the tough times ok, you will be that much better off for doing so.

Thanks mate, it has been difficult but life goes on. The support has been just unreal which has made it heaps easier. I might have lost my fish but not my sense of humour, you just gotta move forward, upwards and onwards. My family tell me I'm like a Duracell Battery, I just never give up.

My question then is...then what? Seems like a lot of breeders I have looked up online move their fry after a few weeks to very large vats to raise them to the inch 3.75 to 5 centimeter range, then they are sold. Is that generally how most smaller breeders handle it that stage?

Vats are a great idea if your operation is big enough to warrant them but your talking in fairly commercial terms there. I have approx' 30 growout tanks and many times it was not enough, I probably spelled my pairs more than most purely because of room and tank issues but what you must work out is how often you will allow your pairs to spawn and the room you're going to need to house that number of fish for 3 months.
As an example, if you ended up with 6 pairs say and they spawned once a month with an average net spawn of 80 fry. That's 480 juves per month times 3 months or 1440 fish over 3 months. You always want (or at least I did) the minimum amount of fish per tank as you can and definitely no more than 30 per 4ft tank at 3 months old, preferably 25. Now work that out and you'll have a heart attack and your bank manager will never speak to you again lol! I used to cull quite heavily and only keep the best hanging around which helped to a great extent but with 6 pairs you will still need a substantial amount of room for them to grow out.

I was thinking that perhaps if I had several spawns around the same time that I could add several different varieties of discus to the same large grow out tank. The larger tanks seemingly would take up less space would use less plumbing when connected to the central filtration system, and just in general be easier to maintain.

You could most certainly do that but the same equation applies.

I am not so much concerned about disease. If I do a central filtration system I would plumb it so that if a tank was showing signs of a health outbreak I would shut off that tank from the filter and add its down canister until I could identify, isolate and eradicate the problem.

Great in theory but I would always be concerned about disease. Centralized systems are great and convenient but believe me they will always keep you on your toes as far as disease is concerned. If you go that way it is imperative to always keep a close eye on your fish daily, it takes no time at all to go from one infected fish to hundreds.

Wow, you suggest 2000 liters or so for 4-6 spawning pairs of discus. I really did not expect a number that large.

2000 litre aged water for breeders and growouts, it goes nowhere believe me. I use a 3000 and it still wasn't enough on many occasions.

but what do you suggest that could hold that much water?
I use a rain water tank, the ones you see at the side of people's homes or at least we do over here.

Do you use that much daily or would that last a while.

Many moons ago before the Australian water crisis I would go through 20,000 litres a week.

My next question is how do you refill something that large and still do you water changes. Depending on how much R.O water I need in relation to the tap water, that could take a while to refill.

I fill mine straight from the tap and 3000 ltrs takes about 2 plus hours to fill.

The centralized filter system somewhat baffles me because I have never used a sump in any of my tanks. If you have a centralized sump system, do you have one sump for everything. That would have to be quite a large sump.

You definitely don't want your breeders on the same system as your growouts. Many breeders would go shock horror if they saw breeders on a sumped system but again there are advantages and disadvantages. Mine always have been with little to no problems until very recently. Personal choice but with breeders there is no second chance, if you are newish to fairly big systems I would probably start your breeders off in separate tanks and leave the sump out of it for a while.

Thanks for the tips so far.

No problem, hope it helps.
MAC

[Hail2Pitt02]

A thought that just came to mind regarding keeping juvies and the adults on the same system.....I have read that fry like a slightly higher PH to grow in as opposed to adults. Example...adults prefer water somewhere in the lower 6 range while juvie grow better in water that's closer to 6.8. Have you heard anything similar to that?

I also did not know you could expect a spawn once a month if all goes well. I thought fish might spawn quarterly or so I definitely see what you mean about the amount of grow out tanks you would need. I am not afraid of culling. I am afraid of not culling properly. I might have to buy an Oscar to help deal with culling :-) j/k by the way.

I might as well ask about food as well. I already have my BBS setup for new fry but I found a recipe on-line that I think I am going to use. Let me know what you think...obviously I was scale it down a litte, lol

1. 350 pounds of turkey hearts
2. 150 pounds of turkey livers
3. 100 pounds of peeled shrimp
4. 50 pounds of fish fillets (non oily fish)
5. 32 pounds of green beans or peas (food for plecos)
6. 20 pounds of fish flake food (to help bind food)
7. 10 pounds of oatmeal

I am concerned a little for the fat content but the guy's discus are amazing. I will probably get my initial stock from him is I can not make the ACA conference in Sacramento, CA this year. Below is his site. I have talked to him a few times on the phone. He is a very nice guy that has also given me a few tips.





http://www.discushatchery.com/index.html

[Merrilyn]

Pitt, juveniles like harder water with a higher KH than breeding pairs. The extra calcium in the water helps the little fish to grow strong bones.

Haven't heard anything about a different pH. Don't believe that would matter. All mine are in the same water, with the exception that is grow out tanks, I have extra calcium in the form of shell grit in the corners of the grow out tanks.

That recipe looks fine. I think I would eliminate the oatmeal. You won't need it as a binder, and it will very quickly pollute the water.

I wouldn't worry about the fat content. You will be carefully removing all the fat and sinew from the turkey hearts and liver before you put it through the mincer.

There are lots of variations on that recipe, and all of them are good. You can even substitute beef hear for the turkey heart if you find them difficult to obtain.

[mistakes r crucial]

If you're going to get serious using lots of water and loads of tanks you would find it an absolute pain in the ass fiddling around with different Ph values. It means either more very large aging tanks or using it and refilling every time you W/C and I'll give you a week doing that at best, very time consuming.

I've read somewhere, can't remember where, that livers are of very little nutritional value to fish. With that recipe I hope you have a freezer the size of a house lol!
MAC

[Mattzilla]

great advice MAC and good luck Hail2Pitt02

keep us posted with your progress

[Hail2Pitt02]

Thanks Merrilyn and MAC.

Maybe I should tell you what I am thinking and about my setup for water and you can tell me if I am thinking right.

As it stands, my water out of the tap is about 7.6 to 7.8 (man those colors are hard to gauge with 100% certainty. After about 24 hours the PH drops to about 7.2. I haven’t ever saved my water past that point to see if it moves any further (that probably wouldn’t be such a bad idea). I can not exactly remember what my KH and GH are from when I did water tests last week but I believe my KH was at 4 and the GH was at about 7….I think…am pretty sure. I will be doing a million tests between now and when I finally get my little hatchery rolling so I will update later on.

This was my plan for water chemistry. I am going to experiment with a whole bunch of 5 gallon buckets, R/O water, tap water and peat moss (maybe If I find it necessary). Like I said I would ideally like to find a recipe for the above ingredients that gave me a PH of around 6 for the breeding tanks with the softness around about 100 m/s, (here is more idiot question of the day, but here goes anyway… by softness they mean G/H right).

Once they become about the nickel (about the size of a marble, maybe a little bigger) I was going to have the move them over to grow out tanks take with a PH of around 7- 7.5, and a G/H of around 250-300. Naturally I would make this a slow progression. I was planning on doing this with crushed coral. I would take 4 or 5 media bags that had progressively more and more crushed coral until I got the water parameters to what I have above. This grow out tanks will not be on the same centralized filtration system if that’s the way I go. I will probably create a totally separate filtration system for them, with a separate aging tank.

The reason for doing so is that most of the fish I would sell would probably be local and I want to try and assimilate them as much as possible to what they will spend their life in. I wouldn’t want to trust people to assimilate their discus to our local water, have their new expensive discus die on them and then demand a refund.

Is my thinking off?? Am I over complicating things or is my train of though on the right track. Thanks guys, the advice I have gotten so far is really crystallizing things for me,

[Hail2Pitt02]

Thanks for the tips on the food. I think I good get either beefheart or turkey hearts fairly easily as there is a market in Pittsburgh that sells everything from $100 per caviar ounce to giblets....all under one roof. My wife hates it in there but its a Pittsburgh Icon so I love it :)

For fry I was planning on feeding BBS (naturally), but also daphnia and the above discus paste food.

Again the adults main diet would be the recipe above with supplemental feedling (every other day I am thinking) of:

Frozen Hikari Blood Worms
Tetra Bits (soaked in water for a few minutes before feeding)
Frozen or Live Adult Brine Shrimp
Mysis Shrimp
Chopped up Red Worms (in the spring and summer)


Hopefully the foods I mentioned above will lead to fast growing, nice and colorful discus.

[mistakes r crucial]

After about 24 hours the PH drops to about 7.2. I haven’t ever saved my water past that point to see if it moves any further (that probably wouldn’t be such a bad idea).

Get yourself a bucket of water with an airstone in it and test the Ph every 24 hours over 3 days and see what happens. There are breeders over your way that are successful using a Ph of 7.6. The fact that yours will drop to 7.2 over 24 hours is a good thing and in fact you could even consider leaving it at that and seeing what happens. There are benefits of having a lower Ph but there are even more IMO if you can completely leave it alone.


I can not exactly remember what my KH and GH are from when I did water tests last week but I believe my KH was at 4 and the GH was at about 7….I think…am pretty sure.

There is nothing wrong with those readings, again, I'd be leaving them be.


This was my plan for water chemistry. I am going to experiment with a whole bunch of 5 gallon buckets, R/O water, tap water and peat moss (maybe If I find it necessary). Like I said I would ideally like to find a recipe for the above ingredients that gave me a PH of around 6 for the breeding tanks with the softness around about 100 m/s, (here is more idiot question of the day, but here goes anyway… by softness they mean G/H right).

Why are you considering RO water? I know people here that would give their right arm to have hardness readings like yours. If you want to lower your Ph and hardness Peat will work for you as your water is already pretty soft, around 120 m/s. The KISS principle when breeding Discus is the way to go IMO, it doesn't have to be overly scientific. Feed them a healthy and varied diet, keep good water up to them and believe me the fish will do the rest for you, they're smart!


Once they become about the nickel (about the size of a marble, maybe a little bigger) I was going to have the move them over to grow out tanks take with a PH of around 7- 7.5, and a G/H of around 250-300.

As I said above, keep it simple stupid and don't play with your water. Your Ph already drops naturally to at least 7.2 and the peat will probably drop it to around the mid to high 6's. If your breeding is successful and you have 500 fry hanging around a system and heavily feeding to get them out the door you definitely don't want a Ph over 7. You can get Ammonia issues when feeding 4-6 times a day and Ammonia becomes Ammonium in a Ph under 7, far less toxic. If you leave the fry with the parents that long your breeders won't have any sides left, move em after about three weeks.


The reason for doing so is that most of the fish I would sell would probably be local and I want to try and assimilate them as much as possible to what they will spend their life in. I wouldn’t want to trust people to assimilate their discus to our local water, have their new expensive discus die on them and then demand a refund.
Is my thinking off?? Am I over complicating things or is my train of though on the right track.

Far too complex! Just grow em and get em out the door in good health.
MAC

[Hail2Pitt02]

MAC I am speechless. When I donate to your new fishroom I hope they don't take a big wet bite out of it with conversion costs. Man, thank you so much for the info.

[Hail2Pitt02]

Well....the research continues. I am just about ready to pull out my hair trying to take the PH readings every hour but over the last 3 days it appears my PH is staying put at 7.2, 3 days after I filled the bucket. I can not be sure since the liquid reagent tests are so hard to distinguish one reading from another. This frustration has prompted me to buy the following:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12072&Ntt=ph&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

Hopefully this little gadget will help get me back on track with my water testing. It does appear that my KH is about 2-2.5 and the GH is at 6-6.5. I have tested it the last couple of days and for the time being its consistent.

Assuming my PH stays relatively stable, the KH and GH stay where they are....do you recommend staying the course with current water conditions on the breeding tanks. As I said before I do plan on adding peat to make the water a touch more acidic, would an idea to add a small amount of crushed coral to increase the KH without skyrocketing the PH. I could play with the amount of crushed coral? What do you think?

Looks like I am ok for the grow out tanks with these water parameters so that is good news.

PS- I finally found a container large enought to hold all the water for aging purposes.....a septic tank.....its not just for filling with poop anymore.

[mistakes r crucial]

Well....the research continues. I am just about ready to pull out my hair trying to take the PH readings every hour

LoL Hail, I meant test it once every 24 hours not every hour, I love the enthusiasm LMAO!


Hopefully this little gadget will help get me back on track with my water testing. It does appear that my KH is about 2-2.5 and the GH is at 6-6.5.

Excellent, not much wrong with those readings. The GH could be a couple lower but see how it goes.


Assuming my PH stays relatively stable, the KH and GH stay where they are....do you recommend staying the course with current water conditions on the breeding tanks.

Leave well alone and see what happens, stability is the most important.

Looks like you're on your way, still laughing at every hour.
MAC

[Hail2Pitt02]

Actually I misspoke (typed). I only test the water once a night. Although trying to read those test kits once anight is enough. I might end up swimming with my fish is I had to test more than that :)....Thanks again MAC.


As for the GH being a touch high. I am hopeful that the peat might help to lower that a little, but alas that is what the experiments are for. I know you are saying not to play with the water much but are you suggesting not to mess with the peat either. Either way I will probably add it to a few bucket os tap water to see what it does to the water tests. I will post the results to get your thought.

[stonedavid]

Hi guys,
I have gone with 3 foot breeder tanks and keep the fry in with the parents depending on the parents but most of the time i take them out between 5c and 10 c size and transfer them to the grow out ponds (1000lt).
One pair of NRT tend to have huge spawns of about 500 minimum and that amount of babies in a 3 foot tank tends to need constant water changes, due to the tropical heat and also the oxygen comsumption. I use zeolite in my filters on the ponds this i have found reduces any ammonium spikes should i get a bit lazy and forget to monitor them.
Binders for food i use weet-bix, have been using it for years, tends to mop up any juices and its healthy for the fish, wldn't oatmeal cloud the water?
Keep all my breeding tanks individual and flush them out all at the same time. Water from the flush out goes into a sump and is recycles throughout the garden. I suppose it up to the individual whether they use centralized or individual filtering, up to what they are wanting and how much time they have to spare.

[discusjess]

I am concerned a little for the fat content but the guy's discus are amazing. I will probably get my initial stock from him is I can not make the ACA conference in Sacramento, CA this year. Below is his site. I have talked to him a few times on the phone. He is a very nice guy that has also given me a few tips.

http://www.discushatchery.com/index.html

His discus truly are amazing. I visited his hatchery a few weeks ago and I will certainly return to get some from him when I have space (haha). He's been in the hobby for many years and is very knowledgeable. It looks like you're in PA, so it's definitely worth the trip if you're interested in any of the strains he has.