Disease in Discus

[mistakes r crucial]

It's 3.20am Sunday morning and just been to check on them and have lost the first breeder dam it. By the look of some of them there are more to go yet. Bottom line is mate I think I caught it too late as far as your remedy is concerned. The Metro, Ph and salt worked fine on a mates fish a couple of years ago and we didn't lose one but I have never seen anything like this. It's very different to what we worked on back then. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.
MAC

[samir]

wtf ??? :shock: :shock: when did you get it ???? is it just a few or widespread ????

[mistakes r crucial]

It's 40 grands worth of fish Samir, the whole bloody lot. I knew I had it about 5 days ago but the last time I saw it a couple of years ago we fixed it within 7-8 days and I thought this one was going along fine too, that all changed 2 days ago and to be frank, I've never seen anything like this.

I hope none of you guys ever have to see tanks likes the ones below.
MAC

[samir]

it looks strange, something like chlorine poisoning :? would think they'd be all bunched up and your water would be a lot dirtier. cant see any white slime on the fish either :?

[mistakes r crucial]

There's not been anywhere near the slime compared to my mates episode 2 years ago but they have shown all the signs of the Plague. I might add that sabotage has been a topic of discussion but we really didn't want to believe it and still don't. We should find out one way or another as live fish have been sent to the Uni in Toowoomba and a lab in Brisbane.
MAC
Samir, those pics were taken straight after a W/C.

[mistakes r crucial]

Samir, LR, Andrew Soh, Andrew (Fishgeek), Mike (Noddy),

IF something has inadvertantly found its way in to my 3000 litre aging barrel (which is at the very front of the house) such as Round Up or other toxic chemicals do any of you guys know what symptoms would show on the fish?

I have about 8 adults that are not showing too many signs of anything and one Solid Red was getting ready to spawn on a sponge yesterday after a W/C and the addition of Tetracycline, unbelievable! That in itself seems to me to point away from something in the water or surely all of them would be suffering? The fin rot on the juveniles is horrendous with some of them now on the bottom without tails at all, they've completely rotted away. The fish that are still swimming and not on the bottom are flicking against air tubes etc so all in all it does point to the Plague IMO but Samir pointed out the lack of slime so I thought I'd ask. They have lost slime but not in sheets like I have seen it.

Any input gratefully received at this point as all I can see right now is 5 years hard work going straight down the gurgler.
MAC

[scott bowler]

mac sorry to hear that it has taken hold, the symptoms you have arent the same as my fish showed . my fish bunched at the top of the tank with heavy breathing. and sheets of slim comeing of them.they all recovered but it was very conserning watching you r fish.turn black and become ill.the thing with this prob is that there is only so much you can do the rest is up to the fish to pull though the low ph,the salt,the high temps , and any med you put in wether its tetracycal or metro and that is all that we can do. good water as well, all in all i am sorry that you have it and wish you well mate hope it works out scott

[Merrilyn]

MAC I was shocked when I read your post.

I'm so terribly sorry to hear that.

I've had plague - wiped out half my breeding fish - so I know what you're up against.

But, honestly, your fish don't look like they're suffering from plague at all. There are no great sheets of slime falling off the bodies, they're not hanging at the surface piping and they're not sitting by the outlet of the filter. Plague makes breating difficult, and I don't see that with your fish.

Another thing, plague will make the water stink. Are you noticing an odour from the tanks at all?

For them all to go down like that, it's got to be a water issue. Plague is airborn, but it usually hits one tank at a time.

I wish I could offer you some real help, but all I can do is offer my sympathy and hope that the test results will give you some clear answers.

We're all thinking of you MAC and keeping our fingers crossed.

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks for all the support. I've received a phone call from someone this morning (thank you, you know who you are) that really knows his stuff and he reckons it's not the Plague but Aeromonas. An airborne bacteria that looks very much like the Plague but the end result, in many cases, is much worse than the Plague apparently. It doesn't live down South, only tropical or sub tropical regions and especially in hot, dry weather. He's had it himself in the past and my situation looks very similar so if he's right and I save even half my breeders he can expect to get pi*s*d for free for as long as he likes!

The smell is disgusting, think of rotting flesh and you've got it.
MAC

[the german]

cant find anything about arimonas in google :shock:
maybe any other names?
very sad what happen to your fish :(
and so quick,i hope you let us know what u do for medication and what happen to the rest of your fish.

michael

[the german]

ah ok ,that look different.

[the german]

put some links up for poeple who are intrested.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA042

http://govdocs.aquake.org/cgi/reprint/2003/727/7270080.pdf

http://hmsc.oregonstate.edu/classes/MB492/hydrophilahayes/

[mistakes r crucial]

I spelt it incorrectly German, it's Aeromonas and it's deadly. The symptoms look very much like the Plague with the initial gasping for breath (my juve's did that not the adults), bunching up in the corners of the tank and then fin rot you wouldn't believe. I will know by tomorrow morning if there's going to be any improvement with the treatment I've been given. I've only just started reading up about it but apparently it's worse in times of drought and can creep in via the mains water so all in Qld keep an eye out because this is enough to make a grown man cry!
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks for the links German, they and other stuff I've read pretty well confirms the situation for me but the prognosis sucks, it's just a bit late in the day to save most of my breeding stock but I'll be back.
MAC

[samir]

i think if there is Aeromonas sobria, it isn't the primary cause. Its a very common bacteria and as far as I know does not cause any major hassles in the short term unless the fish are severely stressed.
imo there's something in your water that has knocked the fish out,my guess is chlorine or chloramine.

[the german]

yes sounds like a really really bad bug :( :(
wish you luck in saving at least a few.
i cant imagine how that feels :cry:

[Merrilyn]

You've got friends here who will help you get back MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Samir,

I was only saying to a mate a couple of weeks ago that my fish have not looked better in 2 years. I age water for a minimum of 24 hours which knocks chlorine out and have been using Prime for the last few months on top of that, it aint either of those mate, guaranteed, I check it. The fish have not looked stressed and have bred well for months so I'm at a loss to know what the helll has gone on.

From what I've been told and read Aeromonas can turn up in your tap water and if they're not used to dealing with it then it can be devastating. My fish have been and always will be kept in excellent conditions so who knows. I just hope that the lab tests come back with something positive. I'll put it down to experience and keep going.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

There's some real troopers on this forum, I can tell you that!
MAC

[scott bowler]

you hang in there mac keep the chin up and working on it the is always hope with these fish , they are worth every bit of stress they give us . i do hope you work it out mate

[samir]

IF something has inadvertantly found its way in to my 3000 litre aging barrel (which is at the very front of the house) such as Round Up or other toxic chemicals do any of you guys know what symptoms would show on the fish?
MAC

my experience with chlorine is this,
the fish half swim- half float around in circles, a lot of them float around with their faces pointed skyward, eventually they lie down at the bottom of the tank and breathe heavily, body turns whitish if there is a lot of chlorine present. With smaller amounts the only difference is that they don't turn white. gills turn whitish and fins get burned.
If one gets it immediately and transfers the fish to another tank they recover almost instantly. adding ager to the water is not that effective.

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Mac,

Sorry I came into this post late......as I have browsed this thread a few days ago and everything seem to be alright as Casey 100 said his discus recovered totally in 3 days and are eating well and you even asked him to share his treatment method with readers....I am waiting too...ha!ha!

Samir PM me to see what I can contribute....to this thread...so I will try.....

Mac, your discus have be poisoned....and there are a few reasons for it

1) Slight overdose of Chlorine (not so serious as to kill the discus)

2) Overdose of anti-chlorine

Sometimes, when we put anti-chlorine or conditioner after WC, we tend to feel that it is good for the discus.... Then as we go on putting, there seems to have no adverse effect on the discus...so dosage was being increased to be on the safe side. As we put more and more....there comes a limit when neutralisation with chlorine is completed and the excess sodium thiosulphate stays in the water...and a high dose of it can irritate the gill filaments, choking them and even killing the discus is due course. But such killing effect is slow and allow the breeder to notice it within 36 to 48 hours. But if you happen to overdose with conditioner and are away for 3 to 4 days, I am afraid you might need to dig a hole in your backgarden to bury them....

3) Releasing of toxin by suckers

Unfortunately, this I cannot prove but I can safely say that I have in my discus days encountered 3 times of such incidents....looking exactly like your pictures.

There were all together more than 1000 discus tanks in my farm and a row of 11 community tanks were with suckers(not very large). I don;t like suckers with discus...but to easy my workers job...I took a test. The 11 individual tanks with sucker seems initially to out perform the rest and everything seems to be perfect.

After 2 weeks...I concluded that it is the right way to go and intended to stock suckers in every tank by a weeks time..

***I change water everyday....***

Fortunately, two days later....and that morning, I went to the hatchery at 7.00am and was shock to find most of the tanks with discus all on the bottom and a few died...similar to the photos you supplied. So I treated and most of them recovered and I told myself not to use them again. That was in 1995.

In 1999, because of workers's problem, the idea of suckers came up again...to save time...as I notice many hobbyists and breeders' 'claim of no problem'. But this time, I use only 3 tanks for experiment. The result? After a month into the experiment, the same problem occurred to all the three tanks. So now, I told myself "Never, never use suckers again.

IN 2004, again because of workers and because my farm concentrates more on live-bearer, discus became a hobby...and that is why I wrote the book. Though hobby, there is too much work on other culture so 'Thought on using suckers came to mind again'.

But this time, I told myself ...... I am capable and good at quarantine....so with my knowledge and the ability in treating the suckers...they can be disease-free....so I treated then for more than 3 weeks...antibiotics, metronidazole, potassium...and so on.

Finally, they are ready to be put into the three tanks for experiment. Everything seems beautiful..........but 2 to 3 months down the road....the same thing happened.

*I could not find suction wounds in all the discus affected*

So, could it be a release of toxin by the suckers or that they harbour some very pathogenic bacteria or virus? I really don't know...as I can only relate my experience.

4) Toxin from bacteria

When the water condition/ quality is poor, too high in protein and/ or temperature suddenly change and when there is a proliferation of bacteria, some bacteriawill release toxin into the water so as to paralyse the animal.

5) Drug poisoning

You may have wanted to treat your discus for some minor ailment and was recommended to use a certain drug...which you have no idea about the concentration or ingredients...thus accidentally overdosed or poisoning your whole tank.

Having mentioned all the possibilities.....reflect upon what you have done for the last few days or the last few hours or the day before and what you have put into the tanks.

I would like to suggest the treatment. If you have my book, you can refer to it and follow scenario 6 btu you have to make adjustment as the discus are already very stressed..

But if you don't have ...then....

1) Water Change immediately and remember to add a small quantity of conditioner..not too much. In another 6 hours, WC again (all WC =100%)

2) After the WC, add antibiotic 1.5 times higher than for long bath.
Example: If you use 2 gm of erythromycin for more than 24 hours or 12 days (*that's long bath), use 3 gm..ya?

So 1.5 times the normal dose of antibiotic for 2.5 to 3 hours. You must monitor the discus...and if they are overly stressed...change one third of the water....add a drop or two of conditioner...and fill water back to the top and leave it for 25 hours. If the discus can take the medicine...after 2.5 or 3.0 hours, siphon out one third water and refill to the previous level.

Remember to give fairly good aeration and add salt to prevent dehydration (100gm normal salt to 100 litre of water).

3) On the next day, WC 100% and redose with the antibiotic to the normal dose and maintain concentration for 12 days.

That should work...I hope so...

Hope that will help and take care Mac,
Andrew

[Kingkat]

I just got home from a few days away to find this most upsetting of threads. Mac I have sent you a pm but I would also like to publicly offer you my sincerest condolences for your losses. You are such a great contributor on this forum and personally you have been very helpful to me. I know that everyone here will do everything possible to get you up and running at full speed again as soon as possible.
Regards,
David.

[Merrilyn]

Andrew, thankyou for your thoughts.

MAC would be one of the most careful and conscientious fishkeepers in the whole fish industry.

His tanks are pristine, his waterchanges regular, and there would be no guesswork with his antichlorine dosing or his medicating, and to my knowledge, he does not use sucking catfish in any of his tanks.

I'm completely at a loss. Knowing how careful MAC is, there would have to be some external factor at work here. My gut feeling is that is water borne and in this instance aeromonas fits the bill here.

MAC has sent two of his affected fish off for scientific testing, so hopefully we will all know the results soon.

Good luck MAC. The thoughts of all the members of the forum are with you.

[scott bowler]

andrew has some very intreasting things to say and its a shame its mac that has the prob but do you think this would make a good sticky marrilyn . there is good learning material if mac doesnt mind ? scotty

[samir]

here is a very good article on Motile Aeromonas Septicemia
http://govdocs.aquake.org/cgi/reprint/2003/727/7270080.pdf
its a very common bacteria and I think almost everybody's tanks will have them. They are opportunistic and I don't believe that they have the firepower to cause all that damage on their own,in a closed system, unless the immunity of the fish has been severely compromised.
the only way i can see it being the primary cause, is if maybe new fish carrying a different strain of the bacterium, have been introduced. They are also found in the water supply but I seriously doubt that in a country like Australia they would be at the levels required to cause such an outbreak. Lots of people would end up with gastroenteritis if that was the case
I have researched Aeromonas and Mycobacterium into the ground over the past three months, probably read everything on the net about them :roll:

[Merrilyn]

I hope the scientific testing gives MAC some real answers soon Samir.

If it happened to a careful fishkeeper like MAC, then it can happen to any of us.

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Merrilyn,

Even a very serious bacteria infection would not cause this....an across the board damages overnight as seen in the photos.

In my opinion, this is a toxin poisoning somehow.....maybe he did a treatment that had somehow affected the discus....it is for Mac to answer.....sorry Mac, say something...ya? ...so that I may understand

Samir is absolutely right and as in my book, Aeromona Sobrio sp. stays in the fish.......and do not infect the fish as in the pictures. Discus with serious A.S.sp. infection shows telescopic eyes and darkening of the body...very dark. The will happen when the water quality is at its lowest....and considered a chronic infection as it is hard to get rid. In normal circumstances..A.S.sp. can stay in discus as an endobacterium for a long time without doing harm

The other aeromona species common with discus is the Aeromona Hydrophila. This bacterium is around in streams and ponds and open air culture. It is seldom in indoor tanks but can also invade at times. If the water quality is good, it can be around but no harm is done. But because it is an opportunistic bacterium, a sudden change in the water condition...especially a sharp rise in Ammonia level or overstocking...may trigger its proliferation and it becomes very pathogenic.

Once it proliferates, the symptom is sudden appearance of ulcer on the body of the discus....so it can be safely said that ....if they is not a single discus with ulcer, the cause is not Aeromona hydrophila.

Beside the above two aeromona bacteria......the rest of the aeromonas seidom associate with discus...not that I know of.

As far as I understand, Mac keep his discus in optimum condition because he take the trouble to monitor the water quality and ammonia level and whatever he puts in is of accuracy...so I should conclude it cannot be cause by bacteria.

I am sure that the culture at the lab may find the bacteria-count insignificant ...(not to the extend of causing harm).

Hope everything is alright with Mac.

But as in infection, treatment must be administered first before the result is back. Bacteria culture takes 5 days...and in some infections....getting the feedback before making treatment may be too late.

That's my opinion. All the best Mac my friend... :wink:

Andrew

[Andrew Soh]

Forgot to add...that of recent (4 to 5 years), Aeromonas Septicemia has penetrated the discus hatcheries in Asia.

But even A. Sept. eat away the fins and so on, its infection is to individual discus one at a time or a few.....and the infection is slow and will take weeks to cause damages to all the discus within the same tank and not an infection across the board as in the photos.

Andrew

[fishgeek]

not aware of any acute toxicity issue's with roundup and fish

it is absrobed by oranic material, though if your tanks are so clean i guess there is little organics
i think it is formulated with a surfactant? any increased foaming in water?

cronic exposure at sublethal levels is supposed to be damaging to both liver and kidney cells
all the pub med links to acute toxicity are pay to view articles sorry

is it not typical for fish to dart/flick or jump with toxic exposure?
have we prehaps missed this in this case , maybe over night?

the fin rot i guess is secondary?

would blood borne disease ie septicaemia/mennigitis type issue's be a possibilty? i would have through highly unlikely to affect all fish so severly at once

organophospahte intoxication comes tomind for the paralysed type look of fish on the bottom of the tank
copper intoxication i think cause's similar and bright colouration to fish, just a thought cause none of the photos looked like dark stressed fish that would expect with illness

andrew
sorry i havent been around, i'm working this weekend

[fishgeek]

just read that round up is more toxic at higher temps and pH
still dont know the actual signs of toxicity though sorry

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Fishgeek,

We have not heard from Mac as to what he has done before this happened...so all those I suggested were possibilities and possible solution to help our buddy.

Maybe 100casey can lend a hand and help him since 100casey fishes were able to recover in 3 days......teach and share with us your knowledge, mate....I wish to be enlightened too...may just save the day for Mac.....thanks in advance.

In my observations in the past, mild intoxication may not cause discus to jump or dart. But in long term or long bath, the toxin can cause some damages. Even formalin......in long bath....instead of 4ml to 100 litre of water...which is safe.....you have so many tanks, you forgot whether you already dosed certain tanks and then you redosed. By morning, all the discus though may not dart or jump in the night , by the next morning, all will be dead.

Another example of wrong dosing is when it calls for 4ml of formalin to 100litre of water, we used a big 100ml syringe (so the divisions are smaller and closer) ......and a little extra pressure with your thumb may inject extra...like 4.5ml or 4.8ml. That little extra dose may result in discus lying on the bottom after 8 hours and stay down for the next 12 to 24 hours (still not dead yet).... in near death condition.

You might ask, why lying on the bottom...why not have some swimming up for air or eating and the rest lying?

In intoxication, the symptom is across the board for all fishes within a tank. For most parasite- related infections...including protozoans and bacteria...or worms....except for discus plague....there will always be some so-called 'Unaffected ones in the same tank which may be because of their better immunity'.

Further, the reason for all of them to lay on the bottom is intoxication across the board.....and the most important reason is that the discus are in pain and they are affect so painfully, they are unable to move their pectoral fins...or what ever fins for that matter. Even their gills cover is inflamed that they dare not or could not move their operculum as desired. Therefore in such cases, you can see that they do not want to and try not to move so much of the operculum when breathing.

That's it. I wrote a discus book...I am known to be the best in ornamental fish culture in Singapore....once.......invited to give talks in seminars and leatures to students, hobbyists and even commercial breeders (not only on discus).....on use of drugs, medication, treatment and good husbandry practices.....not only in Singapore but even in places like Sri Lanka, India and Germany......yet not only have I accidentally overdosed and killed many fishes and discus far back (most of them were trying out new drugs or chemicals), even after I have completed the book in May 2006, I can still made a mistake and kill two tanks of discus. It is another long story...but what I am trying to say is that even though I am most careful, I can forget...and I can make mistake....it is only human...I guess....

Thanks and take care,
Andrew :wink:

[the german]

the fact that it happen so fast let me think that it could be round up or similar,all i read about aeromonas says it need a week or two till you see fish die.
i bet mac would see when something is wrong with his fish.
i saw back in germany breeder loose a lot of stock on days they open their fishrooms for puplic like a day of open doors and jealous competitors
poison or infect their stock.noody could proof it but.....
and the fact that the agingbarrel is in front of the house would make it easy to do that.
i hope my theory is wrong :?

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi guys,

Sorry about the delay in replying but I have been busting my ass trying to get as much information and advice as possible to save what I have left.

Firstly, thank you all so much for your support and help, it is very much appreciated.

This hasn't happened overnight, it has been over a period of 8 days now. In hindsight the very first signs were losing a few 5 cent sized fry in my growout system about a month ago and particularly one batch, not all at once but every morning I'd find 2, 3,5, and one morning about 10 dead. As a further 4 tanks of fry were fine at that stage I put it down to a few flukes hanging around and hit that one tank with Prazi. They seemed to be OK for a week or so but again starting dieing off. Three weeks later (8 days ago) my breeders, the vast majority of them, just seemed off colour and not as active as they were. Up until then they were all breeding, all 12 pairs, on a very regular basis. I gave them a water change and used Prime as I always do at the recommended dose. To be perfectly frank, as I used to allow my water to age naturally and use nothing at all, and the fact that Prime costs me around $200 every 4 to 6 weeks it never gets over dosed. I also do a Chlorine check prior to all water changes with a pool tester and I have never found Chlorine in the water. All my fish get a 30%-50% W/C every other day and I have not had any Ammonia or Nitrite readings for months and months. There are no catfish in my tanks and would never have them with Discus. The breeders get fed twice a day, 3 times if they have fry and the growouts 4 times and I rotate BH, BS and flake.

The next thing I noticed (8 days ago) was very slight fin damage around the dorsal and tail of 6-8cm juves, about 250 of them and most of them had this, it was like the start of fin rot and this is when I knew something was wrong. The breeders in another system started to get worse and although they weren't lay on the bottom of the tank they were definitely sick, hanging in the centre of the tank face down. It has gradually got worse and worse from then on and around 4 or 5 days ago I moved everything I had left in to individual tanks not on systems. At the start I was convinced it was Plague as they had all the symptoms apart from sheets of slime falling off them. The juves hung in the corner, many of them went dark and the fin rot was/is horrendous. The adults did not hang in the corners but showed all other symptoms and then gradually, tank by tank, they would hit the bottom and stay there. I lost the first adult 2 days ago, more yesterday and now there are many more just lay on the bottom going the same way.

I will hopefully know more when the results come back and my vet has asked for priority this morning as the losses are so large, 700 fish. They've gone to the State Lab so couldn't really ask for any better. Talk about building character, I've got it coming out of my back side! I've been racking my brains for days trying to think if I've done anything differently or made a mistake somewhere and I can't apart from the fact that I bought a new batch of frozen BS just 3-4 days prior to all this starting. I'm the type of bloke that would put his hand up if I had and in many ways I wish I could, at least I would know what the helll has gone on.

EDIT: To add to the confusion there are about 4 adults out of around 50, in 3 different tanks, that are basically swimming around as if nothing much is wrong. As I think I mentioned a few days ago, surely, please correct me if I'm wrong but if it were toxins, chlorine, chloramine, Sodium Thiasulphate etc wouldn't all the fish be affected?

Thanks again for all your help and support, no wonder I will always stick to Discus, the people involved are a breed all their own.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Seven hundred fish OMG. You must be gutted.

Hang in there mate.

We'll get through this together.

[the german]

hell 700 :cry: :cry:


when i can help in any way just let me know.

[samir]

F**k. I hope they come up with something quick to fix the rest. Hopefully the adults can hang on long enough.

[mistakes r crucial]

I am gutted but the juvenile side of things sounds more dramatic than it probably is. If I think about it positively its only half a dozen good spawns, as long as my breeders make it or some of them.
MAC

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Mac,

Sorry...caused a confusion with the two threads...one started by 100casey and this started by you....I thought they were the same thread.

Finally, reading through this thread from the beginning......, I now come to understand that your problem is not sudden and is gradual ...a few at the beginning ...one two.one.two mortalities.

Sorry I mixed up the two threads and look at only your post about waking up in the morning to witness a change in your tanks and seeing all the discus in the photo having the same symptoms....and jumped to conclusion.

With your explanation now and relook at the whole thread, I believe it is a bacteria infection and is not intoxication.

So maybe scenario 6 should be able to help in solving the problem......basically...1/2 hour PP or formalin....100% WC...follow by 3 hours high concentration 150% antibiotic bath....and finally followed by long bath with normal 100% dose of antibiotic for 12 days. If there is no improvement in 2nd or third day, repeat the treatment.

The cause....don't know....may or may not be in your system...

Feeding with frozen artemia? Uneaten artemia generate more ammonia than other uneaten freshwater animal like blood worms or tubiflex or mosquito larve. The is just a statement...may not be caused by it if your feeding of BS is of small quantity.

Take care buddy,
Andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi,

I hope no one takes offence to these pics but I have to post them as this is one of the reasons I am just so confused. As I mentioned earlier, I have several fish swimming around as if nothing was going on when their tank mates are below them dieing. Take a look at the BD pair, Gold Melon male and two Gold Leopard females, they look like they'd spawn if you put them in a tank on their own.

The pic of the WLSS's is how they finish up minutes after they die and unfortunately I've just netted the last of my WLSS pairs and spares out of the tank.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

and then this crap.....

[the german]

mate i must say it hurts to see this pics :cry:

[samir]

when do you expect the results back ?
the BD and pigeon in the corner look like they're ready to spawn on the glass :?

[goldenpigeon]

geez MAC. im feelin for you mate. so sorry for your losses! you really didnt deserve this considering your efforts mate. very sorry for you!

[goldenpigeon]

hey MAC,
do you still keep the spotted leopard strain?
if your spotted leopard pair dont make it (assuming you still have some) i would be happy to give the pair i bought off you back for as long as you need if you wanted some of the fry. they are breeding well for me, i just need to get my act together.

i hope you are ok mate. i can only imagine how hard this would be for you mate :(

cheers
David

[mistakes r crucial]

You are one of a kind David and I thank you so much for the offer. However, I really wouldn't want your fish in my room for the forseeable future.
MAC

[goldenpigeon]

No problem mate.
If you want them give me a yell and ill send them to you.

Cheers
David

[001casey]

Mac
Please ring me when you go 5 minutes
Casey

[benjohnson]

Those pictures really are upsetting MAC, hopefully you will get some answers soon, and a bit of luck that as many as possible pull through :-)

Ben

[mistakes r crucial]

Well guys, as of 6am this morning it, whatever it is, has well and truly got me. Two of the 4 fish that were swimming yesterday have now hit the deck and I don't expect the remaining 2 to not come down with whatever they have. I will try PP this morning as a last resort but I think these fish are now too weak to cope with a PP treatment. The lab results should be in by the end of the week so maybe I will at least be able to rest in the knowledge of what has caused this.

Thank you everyone for all your help and support. I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to go through this, it is devastating. Over the next month or so I will clean up the fish room and consider my options.
Cheers
MAC

[scott bowler]

mac im so sorry to hear your news mate , if there is any thing that we can do ,even though we are so far away please let us know . deb and i wish you all the best mate . i dont realy know what else i can say , or even how you must be feeling but my geuss is numb , so sorry again mate , must say there have been tears :cry: from deb and she doesnt even know you but it has been hart felt here . hope something good can come out of this just dont know what :cry: our thoughts are with you mate take care . scotty

[Merrilyn]

MAC just in case some sadistic idiot managed to put something in your water aging tank, have you had the water tested for something like rat poison.

My only suggestion now is to put the remaining living fish into a tank filled with water straight from the tap, bypassing your stored water.

I think a PP treatment would be too much for them at this stage. Most I would add to the tank is a little salt to help with the breathing and slime coat.

I wish I had the answers :cry:

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi,

I've got samples from 3 refils of the aging tank, 2 are in the fridge and a third is frozen. I haven't used the aging tank water for 4 days, all of its been straight from the tap, Ph adjusted and dechlorinated.

As a last resort I've PP'd the remaining few fish this morning, about an hour ago but as yet no difference. I'll change water this afternoon if any of them are still alive and see what tomorrow morning brings but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that already.
MAC

[samir]

from what I know of you, it is highly unlikely that you would have any more than 5% mortalities from even the most severe case of fish disease. I suspect sabotage but one can only speculate till the test results come in. Merrilyn's suggestion, I feel would be the only option that may salvage something.
Its the lying down part that has me stumped, the only time i've ever seen it happen is when they have been poisoned. The tests will come in too late. I'll do some reading on the web today and get back to you if I learn something.

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks Samir, I'm also taking a look at information on the net. I'm just hoping like mad that the test results will at least tell me something, we all deserve that much.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

After searching a bit this afternoon I came across this thread on Simply Discus and my heart nearly stopped. I think this is more of a possibility than anything I've come up with so far as I used Fenbendazole only 3 weeks ago on the advice of my vet. Can't be sure until the lab results come back but ... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=30488

One of the posts by the owner of Simply states that Panacur should NEVER be used in water, only in food. If this is common knowledge then someone local is going to get a very loud knock on her door! Especially as a good mate of mine recently lost 20 grands worth of Pepps in very similar circumstances.
Cheers
MAC

[samir]

Fenbendazole is insoluble in water maybe thats why they say not to use it. I think Fred from DPH mentioned somewhere that it can be toxic when mixed with other wormers, but apart from, toxicosis in reptiles and birds, I haven't been able to find anything else.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Samir,

I can't find much either but the symptoms others have experienced are very similar to mine. If it is then I suppose we learn something and move on but I am going to make a request tomorrow to see whether the lab can point anything to Fender.
MAC

[samir]

those side effects are from flubendazole. you will see very similar symptoms with most medication related complications, also with chlorine and chloramine.

did you manage to save anything ? anyone not connected to the main system that survived ?

[mistakes r crucial]

Nope, some are still alive but nothing will survive. On Simply they were also referring to Fenbendazole unless I read it incorrectly. I can't find much else at this stage, there are as many people who have used it successfully with no side effects as there are with. Just need an answer mate.
MAC

[Proteus]

MAC, I was only told about this issue today and mate... I am truly sorry for what you are having to go through.

Regardless of whether they were just grow out stock, breeders, pets whatever, it is a major loss, and our thoughts are with you, as well as our minds trying to work out what has gone wrong, although you seem to have a grasp on what it may be.

For those of you that have kept up to date with this please have a read of this LINK HERE (http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96827#96827). Sorry MAC but you have no say in this, it is the least I or better still we can offer.

[Ben]

OMG, i only just became aware Mac!

My heart goes out to you and if there is anything and i mean anything i can do please let me know.

Ben

[stonedavid]

Jeeeeeeeeeez!!!! Just found out Nigel and catching up with whats happening. Sorry about all the losses matey, if there is anything i can do for you get in contact. Hang in there.
Pete

[kalebjarrod]

what ever resourse's i can offer including my own time helping

anything

anything at all

[fiftycal]

I was about to offer for you to send me samples, and I could possibly use uni resources to find anything wrong, but it looks as if you have that covered.

Ill be donating for sure.

Now I will probably try and go into finding cures/medications for discus diseases when I finish my degree.

My sympathies mate.

[samir]

anything positive with those left ? I've checked out Fenbendazole and it doesn't seem like it could be the cause. Hope the tests come up with something.

[mistakes r crucial]

No Samir, nothing will be left. I have about 6 adults and a handful of juves still alive but nothing will survive. Even the BD's are now at the top of the tank on their side.

Mate, I beg to differ about the Fendbendazole, Al Brewmaster on Simply has said again it should always be used in food. Tests were carried out some years ago apparently and it destroyed the gills in Angel's and he has personally burnt Discus using it in water. I've sent an email to a Professor in the States requesting any information or research papers on the drug and we'll see where that takes us. On top of all that a couple of my mates have used it recently and although their losses haven't been massive they are losing fish and they've stopped breeding.

At this stage I think it would be very wise if anyone is advised to use Fenbendazole in water, don't, or at least until we all have far more information on the possible side effects.
Cheers
MAC

[samir]

the vet needs a bloody knock on the head.
here's a link to an aquaculture diagnostic service in Brisbane, maybe they could find you a fish vet, in your area.
http://www.adsi.com.au/about.html
this is so bloody disgusting, there's no words to describe it. poor fish had to die because some moron was probably f**king smoking pot in vet school.
Once things settle down and you figure out what you want to do, give me a buzz if you're re-stocking.

[mistakes r crucial]

Samir LoL you are one of a kind, I haven't even opened that link yet but I'm sat here laughing, something I haven't done in a while so thanks moo haa!
MAC

[Andrew Soh]

So buddy,

Is it intoxication....after all?

I think it is not the fault of the water-borne treatment if you are doing it right.

2mg of fenbendazole (Panacur) per litre should be safe.....for a day's bath.

It should not be used as consistent long bath...... may just poison or kill your discus....I think.......

The treatment should be once a week (best to be only 24 hours treatment and after that, 100%water change)....and about 3 to 4 treatments in a month (once a week).

It is quite the same as Potassium Permanganate....in dose...and slightly the same with regards to consequence.....

PP also need to be removed after 2 to 3 days...best after 24 hours treatment. There are people who swear by not using PP because it can easily kill their discus.....the horror stories about it killing their fishes.....and their first hand experiences with PP.

During one of my leatures at AVA, fishery department, to a group of trainees from our local farmers and ornamental fish exporters, I advised them to use PP and one student voiced his concern over the use of PP. He claimed that after putting PP......for about 4 days...the fishes started to die. I asked him whether he made a WC...he replied "No".....thought it was unnecessary.

Of course there are many factors like pH and so on,...
I then asked him to try treatment with PP for only 24 hours. He went back, tried, and said it worked and not a single fish died from the treatment even after 2 weeks.

So, what I am trying to say about the safety of using Fenbendazole (Panacur).....might just be related to the method of application.

Just my thought....might be wrong again :wink:

Take care,
Andrew

[ozarowana]

MAC,

Really sorry for your loss mate.

PM sent

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks for the PM Oz, very much obliged.

Andrew,

When it comes to meds I do things by the book, always. I was advised to do a 50% W/C after 24 hours and that's what was done. They had another 50-70% W/C 48 hours after that too. At this stage I am not saying it was the med but the thread on Simply Discus very much points to it being a possibilty. There are people such as Al Brewmaster and people at DPH saying it should not be put in water, always in food. Tests were done years ago as I stated above and apparently they caused gill damage to Angel fish. The reason I am leaning towards the med are the symptoms other people have experienced, the tail standing etc are very similar to mine but who knows?

I have the State Veterinary Sugeon calling me tomorrow, Dr Roger Chong who is from the Dept of Primary Industries so I am hoping he maybe able to shed a little more light on the subject. My vet is also aware of my suspicions as of this morning and she has said that the lab results should show any trauma caused by the use of the drug, just a big guessing game until they come back.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Andrew,

This is what I was referring to on Simply Discus. I hope Al doesn't mind me copying this post but I think it important that people should be aware of the possibilities. There are 3 or 4 pages to this thread and although not everyone has experienced problems most of those who have treated in water have. The below post is from Simply Discus in Nth America and I quote:

Re:Flubendazole side effect....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I think a lot of you will find this very interesting.

As you know, us Brits are not as fortunate as yourselves in having such a wide range of meds over the counter and in most cases have to rely on vetinarian intervention.

Anyway, the week before Xmas, i succesfully diagnosed Roundworms in one of my 6 Discus..varying strains..had them for between 10 months and 2 years.

Off i popped to the vet...prescribed Panacur Liquid 10% strength. I actually queried it with the vet at the time as i was looking for Panacur granules but he said that they only had liquid and he had checked his reference books and it was ok to use.

Fair enough i thought...back home dosed at 1ml per 50l of water..to be repeated in one month. First day, i was delighted..pretty good worm clearout that i hoovered up...fish looked better coloured and were like gannets eating their food!

Day three....All fish develop a milky white substance over their bodies and eyes..all crowded together in a corner.
Immediate 90% water change followed by adding both activated carbon and 2 Polyfilters.

Day 4...tail standing starts...conduct regular daily water changes with re-mineralised RO of 30%..no change..have to euthanise my smallest Discus as it begins thrashing wildly in the tank and damages itself.

Day 5...Boxing day for God's sake!! (day after Xmas), turn tank lights on...utter carnage...22 dead Cardinal Tetras, 11 dead Hatchet fish, 1 dead Discus. Remaining 4 Discus are either tail standing, laying completely flat on the substrate or completely flat on the surface.

Anyway...to cut an already long story short, as of today, i have lost 6 adult Discus, 40 Cardinal tetras and 14 Hatchet fish..no losses for the last 2 weeks thank god!!

As you might imagine..i have had several detailed and meaty discussions with my vet, Professional Discus breeders in the UK and a wholemultitude of Discus fanciers.

The end result is that nobody in the UK has heard of any side affects associated with Panacur liquid...the two leading fish vetinarians in the UK were spoken to by my vet and neither could confirm any side affects nor questioned the dosage/application or prescription. Basically my vet was NOT liable.

The only person (who i spoke to) world wide who had any sort of experience with Panacur liquid were Ron and Robyn Futtrell. I discussed the case in some detail with Robyn who had only experienced a case whereby the med was added to food and the fish obviously died.

I post this now as a warning to anybody administering Panacur liquid Fenbendazole 10% at a dosage of 1ml per 50l of water.....not enough is known about it's use in fish..you could end up with Discus Armageddon like me!!

Anyway...as you can imagine, i had a pretty horrific Xmas and New Year and am now busy preparing my tank for another 8 Discus that i hope to purchase in the next couple of months.

Hope you found the above info interesting and perhaps useful as well.

Thanks and best regards,

Martin

Discus Armageddon I am all too familiar with and the symptoms are so similar it's scary!
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks Ryan and Fiftycal, your offer of help is very much appreciated and I'm sorry I missed your posts until now.
MAC

[Mattzilla]

hey MAc that is just heart breaking. don't be afraid to ask if there is anything i can do

matt

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks Matt, I've said this so many times now but you people are just amazing. The offer of help has been awesome and very much appreciated. All the people on this site are so close I reckon we should make a weekend of it one of these days, talk fish BS whilst drinking copius amounts of vino and generally having a good time.
MAC

[scott bowler]

im with you mac we will have to make that real soon . take care mate hang in there .

[Merrilyn]

Make mine a G and T :wink:

[samir]

and Potassium Permanganate on the rocks for your vet. :twisted:

[mistakes r crucial]

I was thinking a 24 hour dip in 100gms per litre with no air! It should be real soon Scott, it would be great fun. G & T, since when have Discus breeders drank bloody G & T?
MAC

[Merrilyn]

I was thinking a 24 hour dip in 100gms per litre with no air!

You're amazing MAC. You've still retained your sense of humour, when all others would still be in a stupor from drinking G and T 8-)

Here's to you mate :wink:

[mistakes r crucial]

Believe me I have had my fair share of drinks this week and enjoyed ever single one.
MAC

[Mattzilla]

did someone say BEERFEST 2007????? i'm in baby

[the german]

BEER BEER,my german ears here BEER?
dont tease me with that :lol:

[samir]

I was thinking a 24 hour dip in 100gms per litre with no air!

Why do I get the feeling that there's a bathtub, a pair of hands and a throat involved ?

[mistakes r crucial]

If only I was the type lol.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Any news MAC ?

[mistakes r crucial]

None as yet from the lab unfortunately but I've been emailing academics all over the world trying to get more information. I'm still clutching at straws and although some agree and some disagree my call right now is something to do with Fenbendazole. I've had a million and one suggestions thrown at me for which I am very grateful but I'm leaning towards the above. I just hope to God I get a conclusive answer or I'll be creeping around on egg shells for months.
MAC

[DiscusEden]

MAC,
I'm so sorry to hear about your awful week and your terrible losses. My toughts are with you, and if there's anything I can do to help you get back up, please just let me know!

You've been such a positive and knowledgable influence on this forum, it just sucks that this happened. Please don't give up!

I'm sure everyone here wants to know what it was too and how soon you'll be safe to get back up & running.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi DE,

Thanks for the support mate and I'm not giving up, I love the hobby and Discus too much to do that.

I think I'm getting closer as far as an answer is concerned or at least the evidence of the problems associated with using Fenbendazole in water is growing. I sent an email to a Professor Yanong at the University of Florida yesterday and he kindly answered me this morning stating that he and a colleague had both experienced mortalities using the drug in water. He suspects that there could be an issue with solubility leading to gill obstruction/ "clogging" with the suspension. I have also received information that it can cause swim bladder problems under certain circumstances. I'm just hoping the test results will confirm all this.
Cheers
MAC

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Mac,

I am just curious about the dosage and application method of fenbendazole that Prof. Yanong and his colleague used that has caused mortality?

___mg /___Litre water

& how many times a day or week and for how long?

Hope you could provide me and readers with the information so that we may be enlightened. It would be great to be able to learn from others.....

Thanking in advance,

Andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Sorry Andrew but you'll have to ask him that mate, I didn't ask. All I asked was why did he state in his paper/journal that Fenbendazole shouldn't be used in water as I'd read it on many occasions but no one said why. He said it wasn't scientific evidence either but his own personal experience. The reason he gave was because the drug, in his experience, caused "clogging" of the gills. More credence to that than any other but that's just my opinion.

Best news is that the interim lab results are in and I have answers, not conclusive until further tests are done but answers none the same. My fish were infected with Epitheliocystis (don't ask me to pronounce it) a fairly rare bacterial disease which unfortunately, from I've read so far, has no known cure, it is water borne. Because of the infection there were also increased levels of protozoans and flukes which is to be expected. The symptoms of this disease according to my vet are similar to the Plague. It attacks the gills and 20%-30% of the gills on my fish were affected by changes. It is a very nasty infection, it causes lesions and quite a few other problems.

However, regardless of the results I am still very suspicious of the use of Fenbendazole in water. I have just got off the phone with a large breeder (400 tanks) who had a problem with Hydra, treated with Fenbendazole in water and he has lost $12,000 worth of fish. The symptoms with the Discus were exactly the same as mine, tail standing etc and hitting the deck and then dieing. All very confusing but one thing I will never do again is use the stuff in water full stop, a personal choice.

All of you guys and girls out there I thank you so much for all the support, it has been a very humbling experience to see that so many people care about someone they haven't even met, it has been unreal! One of my mates has told me to tell you all that this has restored his faith in human nature, he's normally a cynical old bast*rd lol!

I'm going to restock but not for a little while, I'm going to re-think the way we do things and work with my vet as she seems to think it is still possible in todays climate to achieve a totally disease free fish room, 2 years work I might add but worth it if we can achieve it. Very cheap and guaranteed disease/parasite free juveniles for all forum members, I owe you!
MAC

[Mattzilla]

good on you nigel!

[Kingkat]

Mac, Your strength and tenacity are truly an inspiration to us all.
Cheers Mate.

[the german]

Mac, Your strength and tenacity are truly an inspiration to us all.
Cheers Mate.

absolutely agree with that

[mistakes r crucial]

I run on Duracell mate, it's the Duracell lol!
MAC

[samir]

link to
Successful treatment of largemouth bass, Micropterus salmoides (L.), with epitheliocystis hyperinfection
Journal of Fish Diseases 28 (10), 623–625 October 2005
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2761.2005.00662.x

so it should be treatable
hth

[Merrilyn]

I've just read through a number of the papers on that disease, and for me, it just doesn't seem to quite fit.

The papers state that there are gill and body lesions, gill membranes have fused together making breathing difficult, and the mortality seems to be less than 60%.

Also it's a waterborne disease, transmitted from infected native populations. It's mostly been found in aquacultured native salmon and bass as well as tilapia. Surely the chlorine and chloramine treatments added by the water board would kill it in the water, before it got to your tap. It can also be destroyed by UV. It's also host specific and is not transferred between different species of fish.

For it to get into your tank, your drinking water would have to come from a lake with a population of wild discus who are carrying the disease. Your water board would have also have to have forgotten to add chlorine on the very day that you filled your storage tank, and the organism would have to be clever enough to bypass your UV system.

I guess it could have happened, but for me it's a long stretch.

[Merrilyn]

I found that link too samir, but you have to subscribe to be able to download the paper.

[samir]

and I agree with the lady 100%, I'd say your fish have probably had it for ages, probably came with them on the flight from SE Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if almost all our fish had it along with a few other strains.

[samir]

i usually buy articles off there once in a while.

[Dan]

Hey MAC

I've been following this thread with great interest and
Glad you got some answers and can finally start to more on.

Its great to see your still interested in the hobby after such a devastating event!

And the great character of people on this forum!

Big pat on the Backs to everyone :)

Anyway I wish you all the best! :D

[sammigold]

Mac, I just want to say that I came on this morning after not visiting for a while (have been having computer probs) and was absolutely devastated to hear and see what has happened to your beautiful fish.

It brought tears to my eyes and I am amazed that you have the strength to work through this and to continue. I would just like to extend my condolences to you in regard to this gigantic disaster and wish you luck with your future stocks.

I am glad that you have been given an answer as to what caused this horrific loss and hope that we as a community can help you in any way to get back on top of things and make a new beginning.

cheers, my thoughts are with you
Sammi

[mistakes r crucial]

Bacteria most certainly get through our town water, nothing more sure than that. For the rest of it, I have absolutely no bloody idea. I'm relying on experts to give me the answers, maybe there just aren't any.
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Sammi and Dan,

Thanks heaps, its very much appreciated.
MAC

[fishgeek]

mac i rang the manufacturere of panacur(fenbendazol) in the uk and was trying to get some of the information that i could to help

i know they have some work on usage in water that the 2mgs/l dosage that andrew soh has mentioned comes from
unfortunately there fish person was away this week and so i got shunted around a few irish and scottish experts (more at farming salmon) some of the interesting things to come out of these sonversations- nothing on panacur as yet
were that slice an ivermecion like product has been registered for use in fish by schering plough and so there will be all the experimental data on it's usage and safety, apparently a lot of this data is not published as it is just to get licencing of the medication
i may be able to get copies of at least a tested and proven wormer's data though

i will endeavour to speak with william wildgoose aswell, unfortunately he was not able to take my call on friday, have you already contacted him? he was someone that i was reffered onto for the ornamental fish side of things ,

maybe some more info, maybe not
i would know more but alas i too was smoking pot instead of listening to my fish lecture's at uni :wink:

andrew

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks for your information, Mac.

I tend to agree with you.

With your known husbandry practises and they way LadyRed's affirmation of your careful approach to known medication and water quality-control, it is quite impossible to have a bacteria infection.

Thanks again for sharing,

Take care buddy,
Andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Here's the lab report so if anyone can make any more of it than I please feel free to do so. The bacteria, according to my vet, would have come in via an infected fish some time ago. Why it would have waited 6 months to give me pain I've no idea. Some of the papers I read this afternoon said heavy mortalities, a couple said up to 100% and one said, and get this, "can be over 100%" I wonder how they achieved that? :lol:

Andrew, thanks for getting hold of the Panacur manufacturers, I had not done so.

Andrew Soh, mate it would appear you change your mind a fair bit, intoxication, bacterial, now impossible to be bacterial or did I sense a little sarcasm there? I hope not Andrew, I don't need it.
Cheers
MAC

[marg]

Mac,

I haven't been online for quite some time due to illness. Was feeling a bit perkier this morning so decided to log on and after reading what has happened to you I feel completely devastated. I am completely at a loss for words, and can only say that my thoughts are with you at this most horrid time.

You amaze me in that you are still looking forward - to be honest what you are going through would finish me for good. My thoughts are that you will come back bigger and better with your determination.

Even though I have been not the best I have still managed to keep all of my Fish though at one stage I was seriously considering rehoming them all as water changes etc. were proving to be a problem for my family however we have managed and all fish are healthy as ever.

Once you get back into things again if any of my Fish would be of interest to you (e.g. babies you sent to me, Adults I purchased from G.P.) please let me know - I will happily send them to you free of any costs whatsoever, same as you did for me. What goes around comes around as the old saying goes.

You are truly an inspiration, I will be thinking of you. best wishes,

marg.

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks Marg, I'm over the worst of it thank goodness, not nice I must admit but we will be back. Thanks for your thoughts.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Gee MAC, it doesn't give you many answers, does it. A few flukes, a few protozoa, thinning of the skin and some thickening of the gills. Heck, I'm no scientist but I don't see anything in that report that could have caused such massive losses.

I was hoping it would have given you some real answers.

Maybe the treatment with fenbendazol weakened the fish's immunity and allowed bacteria to take over.

HeII mate. I wish I could wave a magic wand and give you the answers.

[Andrew Soh]

Hello Mac,

You have totally mistaken my postings....and is no sarcasm. Please don't read it the wrong way...I know you are uptight....buddy.

My changing of mind is this:

1) When the first time I saw the two photos you posted...where all the discus were at bottom and the condition they were in, I made a conclusion that it is intoxication.....and I gave all the possible reasons and one of them is drug dosing mistake...or drug poisoning.

2) Immediately after my post, Ladyred said that you are one very careful breeder and that option of drug poison is not possible. I still have my doubt because the most professional breeder including myself do make mistakes...especially...new drug or since the drug is not manufactured by ourselves.

3) Finally, I asked you to come in to post and give your view which is important...which you did and you questioned my judgement...and said that if it is intoxication, all will die at once.

Suddenly, I realised that I have missed the whole thread.....because Samir gave me the link to that page with the two photos....and I thought it was the same thread as 100casey's....only to realise it is a different thread......so I started reading the whole thread from the beginning....and realised that your discus did not die all at once and that a few died at a time...and very little was mentioned about panacur.

Therefore, if that is the way your discus died, it could be bacteria or viral problem so I AGREED with you that it could be bacteria problem to be kind....

4) Later on, you mentioned about using Panacur in water....and ah! ha! ......now I get a better picture...... YOUR Discus may have a bacteria infection but because as LadyRed mentioned about your careful handling and good husbandry, controlling the bacteria should not post a problem for you and that is WHEN I AGREE with YOU.

There may be a bacteria problem at first but it is not the cause for the discus to sink and stay at the bottom nor the total mortality. Intoxication seems to be the final kill"....and that my first deduction of "Intoxication" that caused mass mortality and all laying on the bottom may be correct after all.

Regardless of whether it is intoxication or bacteria infection, a long bath with antibiotic is a necessity as it will prevent secondary infection and salt too is necessary to prevent any dehydratrion from wounds. This was what I suggested.

**Even if the antibiotic one uses is not able to eliminate that bacterium, it may be able to suppress the infection till actual diagnosis of the problem or bacterium and the suggested treatment is given (result). ***

Mac, you have corresponded with me on many occasions before this happened......it would be unethical of me to be sarcastic.....

Even with new guys, I have never been sarcastic in my posts....even if they are insincere. If I feel they are trying to be funny, I rebut straight in their face....like it or not...because since I participate in the thread and posted, I do not like to see readers being mislead.

So Mac, don't read it the other way.....was just trying to throw some light and hopefully add in suggestion that might work help.

Take care,
Andrew :wink:

[mistakes r crucial]

Andrew

No hard feelings mate and you're right, I am uptight, no offence intended. I've had time to decypher the scientific talk on the lab report and to be frank, the comments here are right, it tells me very little apart from one thing, the gills. I agree with one of Samir's posts that all of our tanks probably have an amount of all sorts of bacteria in them and unless it's something like TB it aint going to cause the sort of losses I have had.

I have been suspicious of the Fenbendazole all the way through this and the evidence (not scientific but personal experiences) are quite overwhelming and they are from all over the World. According to most but not all, Fenbendazole used in water clogs the gills and they can't breath. Two other large scale breeders in Adelaide have also been working closely with me through this ordeal and they have both come out and said that in their opinion, because my fish died in full colour, the liklihood is toxic shock caused by the drug, I totally agree with them. The one that tips the scales totally for me is the local breeder I mentioned earlier. He knew nothing of my circumstances and called me because he was losing so many fish, around 12 grands worth. He had used Fenbendazole just a week ago to treat for Hydra and I asked him to describe how his fish were over the week after the treatment. I said nothing at that stage about mine. You simply could not get an answer so identical to the symptoms I had experienced, his fish might as well have been in my tanks. For me, Fenbendazole is my answer although I do realise that many people will disagree with that, fair enough too.

As far as making mistakes are concerned, look at my forum user name Andrew, I have made hundreds of them and learn more about Discus every day, it's one of the things I love about this hobby. However, with this situation, it is not the case. Not because I am so sure that I have never made a mistake with meds, it's because on this occasion my vet did not have enough really and had to squeeze every last drop for me to be able to treat the 9000 litres I run, I didn't have enough of the drug to overdose by any amount.

I think this is about as far as I am going to get with this, it's happened, I've mourned my losses and now it's time to move on. Again, I thank you all so much for your support, you are an amazing bunch of people and you have no idea how much I appreciate everything that has been said and done, it has made the whole situation far more bearable.

Here's to the future, slurp!
MAC

[samir]

maybe if you got back a couple of fish, you have recently sent out and have them sent to the lab, it would confirm your fenbendazole suspicions.
I think they should also have similar bacteria present. If that is the case then they should be the ones more susceptible to it, with all the moving they would have done. :?

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks Mac for your reply.

Glad you understand my concern and you are right about Fenbendazole, a risk in aquarium use...though not so in land animals.

Take care and all the best!

Andrew Soh

[fishgeek]

mac can you tell me which manufacturer the fenbendazol is from?
is it panacur trade name?

what formulation and concentration have you used
liquid suspension?
powder?

thanks it will help if i can get hold of intervets fish resident

andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Andrew,

Yes it is Panacur but I am not sure of the percentage. It was a liquid suspension. Thanks for the help.
MAC

[Kingkat]

Andrew, I used the Panacur with 100gm/lt of fenbendazole. My losses were limited to 1 female peppermint breeder, 3 x L201 pleco's and 1 large peruvian angel. My main concern now is that Mac says his mate that used it on catfish is now experiencing problems with them not breeding.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi David,

Sorry to hear about your losses. The guy with the catfish hadn't seen a batch for 6 weeks but over the weekend at least 4 of his females spawned so it a case of now seeing if they are fertile.
MAC

[stonedavid]

hey Nigel, Sorry have been away the last week, glad to see you have the results even if they are a bit vague. Am going to show the report to some mates of mine who work in the pathology labs up here, and get them to read this thread to see if they can help you out with any additional information. they usually help me out a bit when i have something unforseen happen to my fish.
Will get back to you if they find out anything significant.
Pete

[fishgeek]

i cant see that any of the anthelminthics can cause infertility
not sure where these kind of claims come from, certainly unhappy/unhealthy/stressed whatever you may like to call it fish wont breed successfully so if the medication is toxic and sublethal i can certainly understand the fish not spawning successfully for a while

most of the benzimidazole group stop energy mechanism's at a cellular level and cause a sort of celular starvation
i dont fully understand it , nor why certain species are more susceptible

from my mammalian understanding fertility has never been an issue
safety when given orally is high because of relatively poor absorbtion from intestine into host animals, therefore intestinal parasites are exposed to more medication than the host ... that concerns me about the in water medication

some of the metabolites may be detrimental to liver health
if the fish had worms and were cleared of them i would assume they would sawn more readily just because a negative has been removed , that is assuming the mediation has no negative implications on there health...
i will endeavour to find as much information as i can about any ornamental fish related work on fenbendazol
i think to some degree we as hobbiest need to realise that when using medications we should give the manufacturer's feedback, they have a responsibility to hold this inforation and then act on any general trend , if fenbendazol in water medication is an issue and has been before then following the usual adverse response route and filing this observations may have allowed all of us to be aware of the situation

andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

Andrew,

Don't think there have been any claims as far as infertility are concerned, it's just been a case of when this drug has been used spawning has halted for a while, not surprised really but this was only a local case and not widespread. I wish we all understood it far more, I might still have some fish left swimming in an upright position!

I think that the evidence of Panacur causing problems when treated in water has been around for years and years if the manufacturers cared to look hard enough. It is obvious from my experience and talking to people that certain species are far more at risk than others and it would appear that Discus, Tetra's and other Sth American fish really don't like it, there is something in that drug that really does not suit them. I might add that this is not having a go at anyone at all and in particular the makers of this drug, it is just another learning curve in breeding and raising fish, we know so little. However, I for one will never use this particular medication in water ever again no matter what.
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Just a thought. But did you ever get your water tested?

[Proteus]

Please keep to the subject.

Also, given what has occured and the amount of support being shown for Nigel it is only fair that Nigel replies for himself. A couple of replies have been moved (not deleted) as they were answering questions on behalf of Nigel which given the circumstance is not appropriate.

Whilst these replies may have been factual and accurate, given the topic at hand it is best that it be answered by the people concered only.

Thank you

[nicholas76]

Mac,

I may have missed this in a prevoius post but has aeromonous been ruled out?

From my understanding a fish biopsy wont determine if this disease is to blame, but a water sample taken "at the time" is a must to detrmine if its to blame.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi guys,

My vet told me that unless we knew what we were looking for it would be a very expensive exercise ie $400 per test times probably 10-15 tests to look for different toxins such as Round Up, Domestos etc. I really dont think another human being could be so low anyway and to be frank, I'm not aware of anyone that would want to do something like that. Aeromonas have been ruled out simply because in many people's opinion they would not cause such devastation even though they are pretty nasty.

I faxed my vet yesterday with my opinion, there is so much evidence against the use of Fenbendazole in water and the fact that other breeders have lost varying amounts of fish in the recent past points very much in that drugs direction. What I can't get my head around is what was Epitheliocystis doing in my water and where did it come from. I don't know enough about it yet to have any idea but I am hopeful that the final results will tell me more.

My apologies for the other two posts, I was talking to Brett recently and have only just got back in the office to answer myself.
MAC

[nicholas76]

Aeromonas have been ruled out simply because in many people's opinion they would not cause such devastation even though they are pretty nasty.
MAC

Mac ive seen it wipe out fish rooms like yours. BUt fair enough it seems you have got a possible leed.

good luck with developing your next batch of fish.

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks Nic, I will be restocking but not for a few months although I do have half a dozen waiting for me in Melbourne that I ordered from Penang. They will going to a mates place until I have more of a handle of what's gone on.
Cheers
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi guys,

Man this gets frustrating but I suppose the only thing we can do is keep smiling. I have just got off the phone with my vet and I am more confused than ever. It turns out that Epitheliocystis IS deadly under certain circumstances (you were right Nic) but this is the killer, it causes clogging of the gills and lesions and is especially nasty when Discus get it. What was the input from many here and elsewhere around the World about Fenbendazole in water, it causes clogging of the gills and lesions, bloody helll!

We will/should have the final test results by the end of the week as it takes a few days to do the special stains. You have to laugh otherwise you'd cry LoL!
MAC

[fishgeek]

synergistic effect of the two together?
immunosupprssion because of toxic liver metabolites associated with fenbendazol?

dont you hate so many unknowns?

andrew
sorry i still havent gotten interves information.. busy fixing broken cats

[mistakes r crucial]

immunosupprssion because of toxic liver metabolites associated with fenbendazol?

Andrew,
What on earth does that mean?


dont you hate so many unknowns?

The fish business is so intriguing and no, I don't hate the unknowns, I just hope between us all we can make many of them "knowns".

There's only one good cat Andrew and I aint giving you my answer to that one!
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Thanks for all the support. I've received a phone call from someone this morning (thank you, you know who you are) that really knows his stuff and he reckons it's not the Plague but Aeromonas.
MAC

As Andrew said, that combined with the damage done by the fenbendazole seems like the answer.

That's why I was hoping you would get your water tested for aeromonas. Not that it would have saved your fish perhaps, but at least given you some answers.

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks to Wickapedia Andrew I now know what you meant, vet speak, not easy for mere mortals lol. I think that's most certainly a possibility but after speaking with my vet yesterday I'm starting to think that we may not ever know exactly what did it. She now agrees that the Fenbendazole could be responsible but I get the feeling she is more convinced on the Epitheliocystis, which she regards as a very nasty piece of work. I forgot to mention yesterday that she did say that the Aeromonas would show up if present but I didn't think to ask her how. She has either sent a water sample along with the fish to the lab or she believes it would show up through some of the stain tests. Please, no one ask me what stain tests are, I didn't understand a word she was talking about.
Cheers
MAC

[nicholas76]

MAC,

some great reading in this.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA042

cheers

nick

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks for that Nick and it is an interesting read but even though it says that there are no definite single symptoms my fish did not have the distended abdomens or bulging eyes. It was me that had the bulging eyes, every time I walked in there lol.
MAC

[nicholas76]

yeah true mate

it appears like most diseases, a disease will set of another disease that will set off another symptom from a disease that compliments another illness LOL jeepers!

overall its a nightmare scenerio to work out :roll:

[ozarowana]

MAC,

Next batch of healthy culls you have... treat them with Panacur and wait!

Should clear a few things up.

[mistakes r crucial]

LoL Oz I was only thinking about that driving along to one of my appointments today. I will.
MAC

[samir]

i can try it, just let me know the dosage and strength.

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Samir,

Sorry for the delay in replying mate but I've been flat out this week. We used 2ml (suspension not powder) per 100ltrs of water and the strength was the same as David's, 100gm per litre of suspension.
Cheers
MAC

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi,

I have just received the final lab results and although not conclusive as to why they all died it is obvious to me that the Fenbendazole caused the vast majority of my problems. The report states that the gills showed "marked congestion" with at least 30% of them clogged with mucous. They found a few flukes and scattered protozoans in the gills which is not surprising after the stress they had been through. They said that the Epitheliocystis was probably an incidental finding and although they have been associated with disease in freshwater fish it is not common. There was no evidence of a viral infection.

After contacting Professors, other academics and professional Discus breeders all around the World the feedback has been very positively, do not use Panacur in water. A very hard lesson to learn but I am satisfied I have my answer. Thanks again to everyone but now it's time to move forward and put this all behind us.
MAC

[fishgeek]

slow from me i know

intervet and there associated specialists

do not advise anyone use panacur suspension in water , apprently it may not be the fenbendazol per say but rather the other carriers etc that make up the suspension

oral doasge has been used at markedly higher dose's upt 3grams yes grams per kg of fish before encountering toxicity

other than that i'm not getting much out of them
have also left requests with schering plough for data sheets on there iverectin based wormer

[mistakes r crucial]

Thanks very much for your time and effort Andrew. As I said above, I am satisfied I have my answer and the comment from the manufacturers would do nothing but strengthen that argument. Thanks again for your help.
MAC