ROTIFERS as a food,fact or fiction

[fishhead]

A year or so ago I bred seahorses as a trial for commercial breeding. Seahorse fry food consist of live Rotifers which we had in abundence,so I thought I would test the theory of raising Discus fry on them.The rotifers were raised using green water as food source,most of our discus are raised artificially so I proceded to hatch the eggs as usual,then place the fry in containers for feeding.we had control subjects in the bowls next to them all having the same water temperature,PH etc.except the control subjects were feed on our usual food. We strained the rotifers through a coffee filter and rinsed with freshwate. The fry fed on rotifers all died while the control subjects had a better than 70% success rate maybe 1 or 2 deformities so the water perameters were good. I tried feeding different foods to the rotifers even gut loading with HUFAS,tried different density levels all without success. Maybe fresh water rotifers was the answer?.We raised them. on green water and milk. Achieving a better success(that means none at all).Under magnification we could see that each time the fry ate the rotifers, but premsumably died from lack of nutritutional value. In all we tried about 15 times without success our control subjects almost always surviving. If anyone else has succeded using rotifers any data would be greatly appreciated.

[samir]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5p072l43354p548/
here's the link to the info, you need freshwater rotifers. I purchased the article so if you pm me your email add, I'll send it to you. I had very good results with it, but ended up killing my rotifer culture.
I had no mortalities and moved them to artemia on around day 6 (i think). the rotifers were cultured on chlorella, I think I overdid the chlorella. Its great for someone who has the place to grow thousands of fry, for small time lazy people like me its just another chore. I prefer to let the parents do the work for the first week and then turn into a full time slave :wink:

[elvip]

Hi Fishhead,
Interesting post.
I have tried artificially rearing discus fry on a few occasions without any luck - using exclusively either egg yolk or rotifers. I managed to get to day 4 after free swimming with the rotifers and day 3 with egg yolk.
I would be interested to know how you usually artificially rear your fry,l as well as hearing about other forum members experiences.
Can you please explain to me how you normally artificially rear your fry, and what percentage of fry death is to be expected doing it this way??
Cheers
Elvip

[fishhead]

This is very difficult for me to answer,we are major suppliers of discus in this country and raise anywhere between 200 to 900 fish weekly to a saleable size. The only way we can achieve these numbers is by the artificial raising of fry,to tell other people how, would mean the end for us.I`m sorry if I`ve offended anyone,I hope you can understand my situation. Our new Discus extension is costing over 50,000 dollars alone. A large investment for us, so there are some things I can`t comment on, sorry.

[samir]

I managed to get to day 4 after free swimming with the rotifers

did you use the live freshwater rotifers ???

[mistakes r crucial]

Hi Fishhead,

I doubt our little Aussie market is going to interfere with your 900 discus a week business, pray tell! We won't tell anyone if you won't.
MAC

[Andrew Soh]

Ha!ha!ha! Fishhead,

You are cute......you claim that you are so involved with discus breeding you cannot tell your secrets.......which I fully agree you shouldn't........yet you are asking and trying to tap on others' knowledge on rotifer..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Where are you from? Australia or Malaysia or Singapore?

Anyway, from the way you explained your experience, I think there is some contradiction. You claimed that you saw the fry consuming the rotifers and yet died eventually....while you mentioned that you use a coffee-filter to strain the rotifer and wash it.

The hole-size of the normal coffee-net is greater than 100micro....and it is impossible to retent the rotifer as the rotifers are around 50 micro and below in size and thus require a net of hole-size smaller or around 30micro to harvest them. That is why they eat algae of size below 20 micro....I think...

If you use a coffee or even the normal net used for artermia nauplii, you will not be able to "fish out" the rotifers.

Sorry for my directness because I tried and strongly believe that rotifer is good for discus and many are using it to raise Albino discus fry.

Take care,

Andrew :wink:

[samir]

must be talking about the frozen hikari rotifers, they are quite big and my fry could not eat them , all fry were dead in around 4-5 days. i still have them in my freezer :roll: (the rotifers)

[Merrilyn]

Fishhead is in Australia, so I can understand his reluctance to discuss his breeding methods.

[Andrew Soh]

Yes Ladyred,

I understand him too....

He can be any part of the world.....as I mentioned in my book's preface......I was once like him..ha!ha!ha!...and I would not disseminate any trade secrets :wink: . It is only logical.

Take care,

Andrew

[Merrilyn]

Nice to see you back here again Andrew.

We missed you :P

[Andrew Soh]

Thank you :wink:

It is my pleasure to be here.......

Andrew

[fiftycal]

I know the "secret" food...i think anyway...

I was told it by my dad's mate, who used to turn out about 300 discus a week or month. He didnt use egg yolk or rotifers. He used an egg related product

[mistakes r crucial]

Bakers would be your best friend then Fifty. Bit hard to find these days.
MAC

[dachoo]

Here one..

But the eggs powder product you mention did work but it will cloud the water ...

DA

[mistakes r crucial]

It does, that's why you change water after every feed, a pain in the ass!
MAC

[fiftycal]

Bakers would be your best friend then Fifty. Bit hard to find these days.
MAC

Yep. Alot of asian countries use them, so they might be importable. IIRC you can still find it in some chinese shops if you are having a hard time finding it

[samir]

It does work and imo its the most practical and effective method of artificially raising discus fry. if you need bulk it can be obtained from www.aquasonic.com.au, for smaller amounts
http://www.southernbiological.com/ListProducts/Specimens/LivingSpecimens.htm
they have the chlorella as well.

Here's the abstract of the article.
Use of the rotifer, Brachionus calyciflorus Pallas, in freshwater ornamental fish larviculture
L.C. Lim1 and C.C. Wong1
(1) Primary Production Department, Ornamental Fish Section, Sembawang Field Experimental Station, 17 km Sembawang Road, Singapore, 769194, Republic of Singapore

Abstract The Brachionus calyciflorus used in this study were produced by batchculture using Chlorella spp. as feed. Larviculture experiments in indoor10-l and 200-l tanks revealed that, compared with egg yolk, the rotifers used as starter food significantly improved the growth and survival of Dwarf Gourami larvae (Day 2–12). These beneficial effects also extended to the subsequent Artemia feeding phase (Day 13–32), suggesting that the quality of starter food is crucial to later development. At metamorphosis,the overall survival rate of larvae fed on rotifers in indoor tanks(65.1–74.5%) was about four times of that obtained in extensive culture in open ponds (17.5%).
In Discus, larvae are dependent on the body slime of their parent as a nutrient during the first two weeks of exogenous feeding. Our observation demonstrated that Brown Discus larvae could be raised in the absence of the parent fish by using rotifers as starter food followed by Artemia nauplii. Their growth and survival rate were comparable to those on parental feeding. The artificial feeding would eliminate the risk of larvae being eaten by the parent fish and shorten the brooding interval of the spawners, thereby leading to higher yield of fry.This feeding protocol is less tedious and more practical for use in commercial farming of Discus than the existing strategies of smuggling the batch of larvae to foster parents or feeding the larvae with egg food. The use of rotifers would enable freshwater larviculture to improve larval performance, increase yield, and facilitate breeding of new fish species with small larvae.

[Andrew Soh]

Well done Samir,

You have posted the article by L.C. Lim and C.C.Wong on rotifer culture. They are my buddies......L.C.Lim is Lim Lian Chuan in short and C.C.Wong is Wong Chee Chai in short.

You can see a photo of Lim Lian Chuan in my book, page 73.

The culture of freshwater rotifer is fairly simple.

Take care,
Andrew

[mistakes r crucial]

That 900 might be 200 shortly then :D

[samir]

Andrew could you post some info on rotifer culture if you get the time.

[samir]

more info. I'm putting everything in one place :roll:
no more "secret foods" needed :lol: :lol:

itre du document / Document title
High density culture of the freshwater rotifer, Brachionus calyciflorus
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
HEUM GI PARK (1) ; KYUN WOO LEE (1) ; SUNG HWOAN CHO (2) ; HYUNG SUN KIM (3) ; JUNG Min-Min (4) ; KIM Hyeung-Sin (4) ;

Résumé / Abstract
The freshwater rotifer, Brachionus calyciflorus is one of the live food organisms used for the mass production of larval fish. In this study possibility of obtaining high density cultures of the freshwater rotifer B. calyciflorus were investigated. The two culture systems used differed in their air and dissolved oxygen supplies using three temperatures in each case: 24, 28 and 32 °C. Rotifers were batch-cultured using 5 1-vessels and fed with the freshwater Chlorella. The growth rate of rotifers significantly increased with an increase in temperature. The maximum density of the rotifers with air-supply at 24 °C, 6500 ind. ml[-1], was significantly lower than those cultured at 28 and 32 °C, i.e. 8600 and 8100 ind. ml[-1], respectively. Dissolved oxygen levels decreased with time and ranged from 0.8 to 1.4 mg l[-1] when the density of freshwater rotifer was the highest at each temperature. The highest density (19 200 ind. ml[-1]) of freshwater rotifer was obtained in cultures with a supply of oxygen at 28 °C. Densities of 13 500 and 17 200 ind. ml[-1] were found at 24 and 32 °C, respectively. Levels of NH[3]-N increased with time and a dramatic increase of NH[3]-N was observed at high temperatures. Levels of NH[3]-N at 24, 28 and 32 °C were 13.2, 18.5 and 24.5 mg l[-1], respectively. These levels coincided with the highest rotifer density at each of the three temperatures. When rotifers were cultured with an oxygen-supply and pH was adjusted to 7, the maximum density of rotifer reached 33 500 ind. ml[-1] at 32 °C. These results suggested that high density culture of freshwater rotifer, B. calyciflorus could be achieved under optimal conditions with DO value of exceeding 5 mg l[-1] and NH[3]-N values of lower than 12.0 mg l[-1].

[Andrew Soh]

Hi Samir,

I used to produce rotifer and it is very simple. Reading from academics' view point or scientific write-ups make it more difficult for the general hobbyists to understand and follow.

As in every trade, there are trade secrets....thus rotifer culture too has its tricks. Simple, I would say that parasites are involved with the success rate of the culture...especially the ciliates......so have to be careful.

Another important factor is handling of rotifer stock and the algae, chlorella. That's all. In fact, I wanted to include rotifer culture in my book, Discus, the Naked Truth.......but thought it would be too lenghty....so maybe in a new book on Good Husbandry practises, import and export and feed culture??? :wink:

Anyway Samir, according to your earlier posts, it seems that you are good at culturing freshwater rotifer....mind sharing your own experience and method....with readers....maybe even fishhead can gain something from it?


Andrew

[samir]

i used information from here, but quickly lost enthusiasm and eventually ended up killing my culture.
http://www.aquaculturestore.com/info/rotifer.html

[Andrew Soh]

Thanks for the info.....should help a lot of people. :wink:

Andrew

[samir]

my secret is out :shock:

[Andrew Soh]

Now, now.....Samir,

Sharing is a joy...no?????

Keep up the good work!

Andrew

[RJ_Archer]

200-900 per week
thats a lot of discus 10400-46800 per year, to be exact.
cant wait to see these on the market lata on. :roll:

[fishhead]

Wow, people sure are touchy on this discus forum. I've been away from my computer this last week and quite frankly am a little dismayed by some peoples outbursts. My reason for raising this subject was of academic interest only, we already have our own method, tried and proven and we're not going to change. As for using the coffee filter, we used 3 layers of a paper filter which eventually clogs up with rotifers, if you pour enough through. I have used both salt and fresh water rotifers in my experiment.I haven`t gone into rotifer research that much as is obvious by my question. I only posted this subject to get interest going, more for others than myself. As stated above I don't need to know.believe it or not, I don`t care. As for the number of discus being bred, like anything how many you sell depends on price. We have perhaps already flooded our own market, but our sales haven't slowed yet. We breed only the number we can sell,we have the capability to hold 16,000 discus from fry to saleable size that doesn`t mean we will.as for 900 a week, some weeks we have already sold that number, other weeks sold nothing.excuse me if i'm wrong but there seems to be many egoes at play here and perhaps we tend to lose sight of what the forum is about.Being new to all this it appears to me people seem more intent on personal attacks than solving the problem.odd!

[Andrew Soh]

As far as I am concern, Fishhead, I am just being direct and honest with my opinion on the coffee-filter.

And as far as I understand, the word 'Coffee filter' is an filter media that has never been produced of size smaller than 100microns (generally it is above 200microns...and rotifer is 50 micro and below.......thus I am just stating the fact. No one produces coffee filter of 40 microns...........for what? Even if you use 5 layers of that coffee filter together, you can never retent any rotifer in the net because they will slip through...I am sure you have the experience.....

Sorry if you feel offended.....I will not comment anymore on the fact.....whether you now say it is made of paper (of 40 microns...very expensive?)..........and I presume that it can only be used once?

Take care,
Andrew

[jim from sydney]

try to keep the discussions "healthy" guys.

its the only way to help each other

cheers

[samir]

Being new to all this it appears to me people seem more intent on personal attacks than solving the problem.odd!

There's now more information about artificially raising discus on rotifers in this thread than anywhere on the web. The forum is all about sharing information, sharing being the key word here. You have every right to your "secrets" but try a little give and take for a change. it might not tick off people quite as much.
The people on the forum are not egotistical, they have the best interests of the hobby in mind, MAC breeds discus commercially, yet I have got a lot of valuable information off them. It speaks volumes about a person's character that they care more about the actual hobby than maximizing profit.
Well all the information is now here, there's a published article that shows it is the most effective way, not just hearsay or "secret" information. I'm sure you're a bit more interested than you're letting on.
For bulk freshwater rotifers and chlorella you can contact Aquasonic or Xtreme should be able to get it for you. You will need to start using the coffee filter for coffee and buy a rotifer strainer. Good Luck

[cichlidfan]

Hey Fishhead,
What varieties of Discus is your company breeding at the moment and do you have pics of your fish, would love to see what you have.
Regards
Allan

[fishhead]

Hi everyone, One thing that really stands out is that while there are plenty of comments no one has actually used coffee strainers to collect salt water rotifers, the idea that coffee strainers don’t work is not true (opps here I go again). Hundreds of times I have personally shaken the coffee filters in the fry tank and watched thousands of rotifers swim out and be eaten by seahorse fry, witnessed by three work mates. A friend of mine who breeds seahorses and clownfish also uses coffee filters for his rotifers (I can’t repeat what he said and stay on the forum). We gained the coffee filter info from seahorse websites, they use them for both rotifers and brine shrimp. One seahorse breeder sent me some links he wanted me to post. That he says will prove rotifers can indeed be strained through coffee filters, you be the judge.

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov99/rotih.html

http://www.princeton.edu/~pccm/outreach/scsp/mixturesandsolutions/diatoms/coffee_filter.html

As for me wanting to use this forum to gain info I can say this I have 35 years experience breeding discus, last year when marine biology was taught at our local uni (The course has now moved to Tasmania). We worked with 2 marine biologists one of which we gave access to tanks for his research on rotifers. We have a parasitologist who drops in now and then when he comes up to visit his parent, which keeps us up on medication info. As well as access to a marine aquaculture facility, who grows out rotifers for hatchlings. They buy various aquaculture equipment from us. As well as a local retired chemical engineer that visits about once a month for a chat, so I think you’ll find I don’t need your input on rotifers as much as you think. I’ll go straight to a professional if I want to know. The question was has salt water or fresh water rotifers worked for others. That’s all I wanted to know as I failed using them. So instead of answering me you go for the coffee filter. Sad really.


[/url]

[fishhead]

OPPS HERE IS THE RIGHT URL

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov99/rotih.html

[mistakes r crucial]

To be honest, who gives a sh*t!
MAC

[Merrilyn]

Whoa, now hang on fishhead.

I see one person raising the question of using coffee filters, and they have stated the reason why they do not believe it can work. If you have access to different coffee filters, and they do work, then so be it.

What I do see is a lot of the members willingly sharing information. You asked if people had used rotifers. I think your question has been answered.

Comments such as "sad really" do not help anyone.

Your input is welcomed, but personal attacks will not be tolerated.