RGD

[Xtreme]

Just thought i would put a few pics up for everyone to see:
As requested by Grant :lol:
Tell us what you think of them
Do they cut it :o

[Xtreme]

more pics
hope you like them
What do you think Grant and Samir?

[samir]

these look much better than the first pictures. couple of very nice ones in there. what size are they ???

[Xtreme]

Hey Samir,
I like them too :lol:
But i think they r only approx 9cm but they should grow into a nice fish dont you think?
what do you think grant :P

cheers Wayne

[samir]

If the're only 9cm they should grow out to be really nice . If you have any in mid Jan @ 5" I'd like a male.

[dachoo]

Wayne

Will that amount of clean red, I think they have a clean cut.

DA

[mcloughlin2]

There are not colour fed at all? Not even tetra bits? If so then they are amazing! :)

[Xtreme]

Hey all,
No they are not color fed,not even color bits
Just a good beefheart mix atm
Do you think that i should feed them some color bits?
What will be the benefit of doing that?
I think their natural color is ok


cheers Wayne

[G-1000]

Hi Xtreme,

Those are the best I have seen to date in OZ.

However, as I have found out myself, the mark of a true RGD is seen when they are adult size. They should have a white halo through the fins.

But those ones look great atm.

RGD pic 4 is probably the best looking.

But Xtreme - and RGD is only one of a few fish on my hitlist - the real question is can you get hold of high quality stock of certain strains?? hehe :P

G

[G-1000]

BTW - do not feed them colour bits if you can.

You will find the contrast between the red and white is far sharper without colour bits.

G

[Xtreme]

Hi all,
thanks for the comments

grant

Those are the best I have seen to date in OZ

thanks mate :lol:
you sure theres not just as good out there
what are these other strains you are after? :roll:
i will give it a go in trying to get them for you

cheers Wayne

[tao]

what's the difference between RGD and RM?

[mcloughlin2]

what's the difference between RGD and RM?

RGD carry no pigeon blood gene so true RGDs display no peppering.

RM carry the pigeon blood gene and can display varying shades of peppering.

[Crocky]

Put some in a planted tanks and we will see if there any pb in them . I have few babies left from what we all thought where a rgd pairs that look like the fish in your last photo.

Brad

[G-1000]

Wayne,

What am I after ?

Well if you can source these I will be impressed.

All of these around 7-8cm total length

1x Rose red (with single straight stress bars i.e no weird looking stress bars)
1x White swan (With as good of an eye as possible i.e preferably no black spot near to the iris)
2x Red eye blue diamond (These need to have clear red eye and good shape without a lump on the forehead that most BD's have)
1x Red turk (needs to have nice colour contrast between blue and red colours on it - pattern doesnt matter so much)
1x ring leopard (as much spotting as possible - right up to the gill plates)
1x heckel hybrid (must have great shape though)
1x "solomon diamond" with spotting up to and including gill plates

I will be truly impressed if you guys can source those at a good price.

The challenged has been layed down!!

G

[G-1000]

Xtreme,

By the way - did you guys buy these RGD's directly from Mr Ung Seng Lip ?

Like as in you didnt use a middle-man/wholesaler to buy them ?

Like Crocky says, we have had "RGD's" before but not the real deal. But like I have said - these look to be legit from what I can tell from those pics. I have yet to see them in the flesh - I havent even been to Xtreme's store yet !

G

[tao]

if RGD don't have pigeon blood and all the way come from brown. which as the name Red cover (san marah) cross pure Golden (also mution from brown), why doesn't show any trait of brown discus? I saw the RGD from SLS, quite like brown, even with blue fin circle, but not so red. I guess RGD in the picture have pigeon blood, the R is red melon rather than red cover, or the G is not pure golden. so this looks like a clear version of red melon. 'true'(no pigeon) RGD is ugly and intermedia fish, only albino true rgd is the real beauty and god price terminal product. so why everyone chase true RGD? why not a high quality red melon? just my point, if not right, please someone correct it.

[tao]

one more idea for pigeon blood solid red: no pepper no nice red. the balance these two create top melon. the reason why very clear melon, red can't cover all the body.
pigeon blood is the same, no pepper no nice pattern, have to cross back turqoise again to get the pattern, but together with the pepper. pepper, red, pattern (blue), all come from pigment sentimental.
just some crazy idea.

[samir]

lets not forget that they're only 9cm and there's quite a bit of colour yet to come. they've probably been in 5 different places in the last month plus the flight from Malaysia, so they wouldn't be looking their best. I think the females should be a very nice red by the time they mature.
As for pigeon blood vs non, I prefer clean pigeon blood red-melons, till the time it comes to breeding them. It can get very frustrating at times.
As for the RGD/pigeon debate, could someone toss them in with some foliage and end the debate.

[G-1000]

I think if anything this RGD debate is healthy rather than destructive.

Some forum members have been rorted before with "RGD's" by a certain ex-sponsor here. So that the same doesnt happen again I think its reasonable enough to have discussions like this.

Personally, I hate anything which is PB based. Looks like ass after they are full size.

G

[nicholas76]

Like Crocky says, we have had "RGD's" before but not the real deal. But like I have said - these look to be legit from what I can tell from those pics. I have yet to see them in the flesh - I havent even been to Xtreme's store yet !

Once bitten twice shy. These are legitimate I assure you. :D :D

[G-1000]

Hi Nick,

Im not disputing that they are legit :)

But being careful is important nonetheless.

G

[G-1000]

Oh Tao,

Let me just clarify for you there.

RGD's can come out of either a red rose x pure golden or a san merah x pure golden.

The pure golden should have no pigeon blood - very true.

Both the red rose/san merah and the pure golden come from brown discus - very true.

However, your point about the true RGD being ugly and only intermediate is not right. The RGD intermediate is actually a red rose/san merah which has a recessive golden gene. This will only become expressed when inbreeding the F1 offspring (i.e true RGD's come when you get to F2).

With these fish here from Xtreme, I dont see any evidence of pigeon blood involvement. Thus, they seem to be clean. However by the same token, whilst these RGD's are good quality and nice looking, they have some features which are not show quality. I have shown these in the next post (bear in mind, when it comes to discus - I can be quite picky sometimes :P ).

G

[G-1000]

Here is one of Xtreme's pictures for their RGD. It has good shape and nice colour to it. If I had space and the price was right I would take it.

G

[G-1000]

This is the same fish, but with the positives and negatives that I see attached to it.

In red, we have the bad points:

- There is redness inside the nose of the fish, suggestive of a transient infection. Note I say transient, because after being in stable conditions and not being freighted etc, this will go away.

- On the gill plates, we have abnormal pigmentation, sort of like shiny oval shapes if you know what I mean. This is normal due to fish genetics, but the less of these oval shapes - the better.

- In the dorsal and anal fin again we have clear circles, detracting from the uniformity of the colour we see. This reduces the characteristic "halo" effect through the fins of the RGD. Still, this is something you would expect to see in RGD's, but the less you see the better.

In green we have the good points:

- Beautiful red eye, with a uniform deep red colour. This is perfect - even the shape of the eye is flawless.

- The tail (caudal fin) is perfect as well. Totally clear and transparent (mark of a true RGD).

- The pelvic fin is also uniform red in colour. This again is spot on.

So here, based on these pics I would say Xtreme does in fact have true RGD's.

G

[Dee]

Looks like the diagram craze is starting to take off :P

G,

If these RGD's where imported by who I think they where, you can rest assured they are definatly the real deal mate. IMO these are a very nice example of RGD's ... better than most I have seen. They will turn out to be very nice adults IMO.

As for RGD genetics, I always thought RGD's where from a Virgin Red x Golden (no PB gene) ... but i guess only Ung Seng Lip knows the real story there.

Cheers,

Dee :D

[G-1000]

Now, just to highlight the difference here:

This picture below is from a certain EX-SPONSOR on this forum, this RGD below IS NOT from Xtreme.

This picture below shows an imposter "RGD"

Where:

- The tail (caudal fin) is extensively blackened and very dark.

- The dorsal and ventral fins also have a black peppering streak through them. There are none of the clear dots at all - this is a warning sign, even though you want as few as possible it is highly unlikely they will all be gone.

- The eye is orangey and not uniform in colour indicating potential colour feeding.

- There is also peppering appearing on and around the nose.

- The colour of the whole body also has a fluorescent sort of orange glow to it.

Even not withstanding this, the fish has a bad shape and quite a skinny appearance.

This is not an RGD at all and not a fish I would even buy as a melon quite frankly.

G

I have also added another image of an "RGD" from the same ex-sponsor which has the same problems.

[tao]

though have a close look of the ventral fin in the pic, I saw a little bit something.
it's hard to find pure golden without pb in the world. most pure golden male useless. like pure albino brown. even lucky enough meet a good male, only 30% babies is golden, others rubbish. can hardly use this kind of fish to create new species, because itself is unsteady. so have to cross something to commercialize this species.
lets imagine use a 20%pb golden(which is not bad, maybe look pure very much and easier to breed much more) to make a RGD. babies very clear and high percentage of good quality. though still a little bit clue of PB. but it's a commercial way to make new product and money, rather than scientific research.
another possibility, use yellow white rather than pure golden, yellow white babies 20% looks like pure golden, yellow white more easy to get, that would be reasonable enough to explain why RGD no peper and doesn't look brown.
anyway only breeder know the truth, we can only guess. in the pic, I still smell PB,which is one of the most successful artificial discus species.

[ivo]

Hi G, Merry Xmas. Re the RGD at Xreme as an example. When the fish is matured will it grow to fully red on the body?

[G-1000]

Ivo,

To you too mate.

The RGD you see there from Xtreme will turn into a beautiful adult fish with presumably a deep red colour to it. So yes, it will look awesome when older.

G

[wind54]

I got to see these beauties in the flesh, the shape of the rgd is breathtaking with tiny small blood red eyes. He had them with red melons and you could see the peppering on the melons but the rgd were clean as a whistle. Beautiful fish

[cichlidfan]

Hi All,
Here is a pic of a RGD that a good friend of mine has and it does not come from Malaysia.

[Crocky]

Hi Cichlidfan

Has the fish got a few blue/green dots on the gill plates as most of the xtreme fish seems to have.This fish looks to have one or maybe its a bit of food floating in the water.
That fish is orange just like the female ex(LR) in a tank 6 foot away from my computer and the only differents is the one on the computer is a better shaped fish.
Do you think you could get our hands on any pics of rgd with fry on there backs and some babies around the 4 to 8 week old stage.

Crocky

[brew3]

More pictures of RGD's or 3R2 from Wayne Ng.

:) :)

[brew3]

More pictures of RGD's or 3R2 from Wayne Ng.

[scott bowler]

they are realy nice fish i would love to have some of them in my tank that would be very nice

[brew3]

More pictures of RGD's or 3R2 from Wayne Ng.

:) :) :) :)

[stonedavid]

Guys the RGDs from Xtreme still have to get their true colour. I was disappointed with mine when they were shipped ( and no they did not come from Xtreme) but they have coloured up heaps better since settling down.I have had my RGDs for about 3 months now and when i got the male his base colour was an off white, has gradually turned a persimmon/gold colour with the red. Some of the males dont go the full red, so i suppose its what is available in oz at the time. If i cld get fish of Mr Ng's quality here in OZ i wld be saying gimme gimme gimme. lol
Pete

[Xtreme]

Thats a very interesting shot that last pic u put up brew :!: :!:

cheers Wayne

[G-1000]

Guys,

Just as a side-note in this thread.

Nobody is saying that Xtreme's RGD's are bad. Not at all. We are all saying that Xtreme has brought in the best RGD's many of us have seen in the country to date. However, we are also highlighting the key desirable features that an RGD should have. I think as these pictures show from Mr Ng, the RGD is a discus which has tremendous beauty when older - as if the juvis that Xtreme brought in werent already good enough to buy. I know if I have an empty tank that a lot of those RGD's from Xtreme would be living at my house! Thats for sure.

G

[Merrilyn]

The RGD shipped to Xtreme were bred by none other than Mr. Martin Ng - Author of Discus Cataloge.

I think we can safely say that he would know a true RGD when he bred one.

These fish are not 'A' grade, show quality fish. You would have to pay thousands of dollars for A grade RGDs. These are good quality representatives of RGD fish, and could easily produce A grade fry. Remember that the price of these fish was in the hundreds, not the thousands. If anyone wants A grade RGDs, let Xtreme know, but be prepared to pay well over a thousand dollars per fish, because that's the price these fish command.

There are several breeders of RGDs in Malaysia now, apart from Mr Ung Seng Lip, who was the originator of this strain. There are also several strains of RGD being sold at the moment, and some of them have been bred down from very clean pigeon based fish. They are still sold as RGD and this is evidently what we have seen imported into Australia in the past, as is evident by the peppering on the fry.

The fish at Xtreme are NOT pigeon based. They are what we know as TRUE RGDs with no pigeon blood in the breeding.

[stonedavid]

I second that G, Xtreme have done a great job getting good quality RGDs and other strains. I know my RGD male isn't perfect but if i can get 1% of the bubs to be a better quality than what i already have then i will be pleased. Fish breeding is all about working with what you have and improving on it.
Pete

[stonedavid]

You've hit the nail on the head LR i was going to say that as well, but thought i had better pull my horns in. Importers and retailers have to look at the bottom line. Buy a pair costing $1000 and let it sit in the shop for months on end or buy the cheaper grade of fish and move it quicker. And also allowing the breeders to get some quality young out of the batches. I must say this tis the most constructive and informative thread going at the moment.
Pete

[tao]

thanks cichlidfan and brew. Now I know I am wrong. RGD is very beautiful fish. and it looks like brown blood very much rather than a clean melon. even show black fin circle in breeding season like wild Alenquer. hi brew! does RGD come from Singapore? does these babies have golden and red rose inside? how many percentage of RGD can u get? very interest to breed this fish. cheers

[brew3]

thanks cichlidfan and brew. Now I know I am wrong. RGD is very beautiful fish. and it looks like brown blood very much rather than a clean melon. even show black fin circle in breeding season like wild Alenquer. hi brew! does RGD come from Singapore? does these babies have golden and red rose inside? how many percentage of RGD can u get? very interest to breed this fish. cheers

The RGD's came from Wayne's hatchery in China, from each batch about 90% to 95% are RGD's and the rest will be either Red Covers, Golden and San Merah. Original crossed from Red Cover X golden with no pigeon gene and upgraded later on by crossing with Super San Merrah.

:) :) :) :)

[Merrilyn]

I have a personal interest in this whole RGD controversy.

I bought the first RGDs imported into Australia, around two years ago. Four small RGD with brilliant red colouring and GREEN faces, and one Albino RGD from the farm of Mr. Ung Seng Lip. Needless to say, I paid a small fortune for them. There are photos on this forum of the fish when they arrived.

Somewhere along the line, these little fish were given hormones. I doubt very much that Mr. Lip would risk his reputation by hormoning his own fish, but as they passed through several 'middle men' before they arrived in Australia, it could have happened anywhere along the line.

For those of you who may not know, hormones give small fish very intense red colouring, and green faces, something none of us knew at the time, as these were the very first RGD to be seen in Australia.

The down side of hormoning fish, is that it shortens their life expectancy, to their point where few of them reach maturity. My 5 fish died before reaching maturity, despite the very best care and attention. Remember, I've been breeding discus for thirty years, so I was no novice fish keeper.

By now, even though I was out of pocket by several thousands of dollars, I was determined to get some RGD imported into Australia.

More thousands of dollars, and a second shipment was duly arranged, this time 5 mature fish, of breeding age. Three females and two males. I was determined not to get any hormoned fish this time, so they were ordered directly from a fish farm breeding RGDs. A former sponsor of this forum arranged the importing and quarantine of these 5 precious fish.

When the arrived, I was surprised at the colouring. No intense red on any of them. Females had clear caudal fins, but the two males had black caudal fins, and just the slightest amount of peppering on the face when they spawned. Not exactly what I was hoping for !

I spawned these fish several times, but could never get the fry to attach, so I gave a pair to a good friend, Crocky, who was having amazing success with breeding a variety of discus. Sure enough, the change in water encouraged the fish to spawn within a few days, and around 200 fry attached to the parents. As they fry grew, some of them developed peppering, a sure sign of pigeon blood in the breeding.

By now, I was so frustrated with the whole RGD thing, and after spending thousands of dollars, I still didn't have the true RGD that I wanted, I gave away my remaining adults and turned to breeding angels.

Since then I have learned quite a few things about the elusive RGD. There are several strains of RGD being bred in Malaysia now. Some of them have based their breeding on pigeon blood, and some of them have no pigeon blood. But they are called RGDs. It seems you have to specify what you want, and enquire what each farm is using to create their own strain of RGD. A great deal of secrecy still surrounds the breeding of this strain, and no breeder will tell you exactly how he arrived at his own strain of RGD.

Mr. Ung Seng Lip is still breeding RGD, but fewer than he did in the past (seems the albino has taken over in the popularity stakes). The prices he asks are way beyond what the Australian market will pay. There are several other reputable breeders of RGDs and this is were the majority of RGD fish are coming from. The fish being bred by Mr. Martin Ng (author of Discus Catalog) are 'true' RGD with no pigeon blood in the genes, and are not hormoned, or colour fed in any way.

Finally, after years of trying, we are now getting the true form of RGD into the country. What happens to the quality of these fish, is up to the Australian breeders.

If we are prepared to cull any imperfect fish, and only breed from the very best in each spawn, we will soon have our own A grade RGDs.

[tao]

Is Wayne Chinese name Wu Shi Sheng? Nice guy but I don't like him. hehe
90%is very steady blood.
i think red cover first appeared in Singapore and san merah is from Taiwan. different routine solid brown. Wu is really a magician, first created blue diamond, now is making the top of red. its right if dont add more brown blood, red color will not be so strong and thick.

[tao]

to ladyred
all the solid red has male useless problem. its such a risk to import adult because fish farm will not give useful male, that's ATM.

[Merrilyn]

Hello tao, yes I'm aware of the problems with the male RGD fish, after reading several of the Singapore forums.

Remember that it was two years ago that I bought these fish, and we knew nothing of the breeding problems in Australia.

Today we are a little wiser, and learning fast. We are grateful to our discus judge friend (who wishes to remain nameless at this stage) and to Xtreme for bringing in some true juvenile RGD. :P

[brew3]

Is Wayne Chinese name Wu Shi Sheng? Nice guy but I don't like him. hehe
90%is very steady blood.
i think red cover first appeared in Singapore and san merah is from Taiwan. different routine solid brown. Wu is really a magician, first created blue diamond, now is making the top of red. its right if dont add more brown blood, red color will not be so strong and thick.

Tao,
I'm sorry to say that Wayne's chinese name is Ng Wai Ming.

:) :) :) :)

[tao]

Wayne is not Wayen. hehe
sorry sorry

[G-1000]

Whilst we are on the issue...

I think a big thanks need to go out to the adviors of this board and Xtreme who have been instrumental in giving us discus hobbyists a way of getting true quality fish at great prices..

So a big thanks from me..

Xtreme will be seeing me and my credit card in late Jan to early Feb....

hehe

G

[scott bowler]

its certainly worth the trip in there G and it doesnt do to much damage on the card with the great prices and good quality fish . im with you they need a massive thanks for all they do for our hobby so thanks guys

[samir]

to ladyred
all the solid red has male useless problem. its such a risk to import adult because fish farm will not give useful male, that's ATM.
i don't believe that anymore. i have two batches from two red males. lots of feeding seems to take care of low fertility.

Merrilyn do these RGD's breed true ?

[nicholas76]

Samir i have been told that yes they do breed true

[samir]

hmmm looks like RGD X Alenquer albino could produce interesting results.

[brew3]

Is Wayne Chinese name Wu Shi Sheng? Nice guy but I don't like him. hehe
90%is very steady blood.
i think red cover first appeared in Singapore and san merah is from Taiwan. different routine solid brown. Wu is really a magician, first created blue diamond, now is making the top of red. its right if dont add more brown blood, red color will not be so strong and thick.

Tao,
I missed the part about where the San Merah's and Red Cover's came from and here are some of the information:

1. Red cover is actually San Merah and in china they call it Red Cover.

2. The original creator of the San Merah are the Pok brothers, they don't keep them anymore and all the stock were sold to Ah San who is in Singapore too and marketed that fish. The Super San Merah was improved by another breeder who moved to China from Singapore and his name is unknown.

[DiscusEden]

Is there a picture or a link to a San Merah and a Super San Merah? What's the difference?

Are we getting albino RGD's in Australia yet? Or are we still working on the RGD becoming established?

[G-1000]

Albino RGD would cost a ridiculous amount of money to begin with.

Lets just work out how we can make some high quality RGD in Oz first right ?

G

[nicholas76]

:P we need to bring these fish in , send them to crocky who has a breeding factory going , and then get him to send us fry, far and wide!

[DiscusEden]

I like the plan. I hope crocky does too.

Pictures of these Super San Merah? Any of them in Aus? What are they? San Merah but bigger? Might be a dumb question, but I'm still learning.

[samir]

Albino RGD would cost a ridiculous amount of money to begin with.
Lets just work out how we can make some high quality RGD in Oz first right ?
G

how would you tell the difference between say a san merah albino and a rgd albino or even a red melon albino ? Once i get a decent red male organised I'll churn out some intermediates. San Merah seems the most likely.

I don't think Brad is breeding discus anymore. Thats a pity :(

The Super San Merah, someone has them but I don't know who :? A few people seem to prefer it over the RGD

[mcloughlin2]

Super San Merahs are in Australia and shouldnt be to hard to track down if you know the right people.

A super san merah is just a better quality specimen.

I'm sure Xtreme could get Albino RGD in, but for a price. I would expect these guys to cost upto $1000 for a 3" fish.

Samir i think once they are put next to each other it should be farily easy to distinguish between them.

Sam

[G-1000]

Sam,

Personally I think Samir is 100% right there.

You may be able to tell an albino RGD from an albino san merah. However, if you had an albino red melon (i.e albino white face marlboro) and and albino RGD - you would have buckleys chance of telling them apart reliably.

The idea of Samir breeding intermediates sounds cool - as long as I get first pick of the fry ok Samir !!

And the price of a 3 inch albino RGD would be approx 1000 SGD which after import charges etc - would be in the thousands AUD.

Ladyred can we see pics of your "Albino RGD" from those ex-sponsors if you can please?

G

[samir]

you can have first pick G but it'll be a while :lol: When and if, I get my hands on a grade A brown based red male. :?

[Crocky]

Here a pic of some fish i still have some offspring from the so called rgd pair and some pb/turk cross discus.
I was trying take a photo of my littlest one but she move and you can see the fish behind her.
Notice the rgd with the pattern around the head 5 out 100 looked like this.
There also a few that have a white face like a m/red.

Brad

the date on the photo is wrong it was only taken a few days ago.

[DiscusEden]

Okeydokey. At that kind of price I might leave it till you guys have got them coming out of your ears and want to give them away!

Gorgeous kid by the way! Fish are great too.

So how much would a san merah set you back in Australia? Should I sit down first? 'Cos the laptop was in danger after the last one.

Thanks for the pictures guys. I love looking at them on the forum - it's cheaper! Keep 'em coming!

[nicholas76]

Crocky!


mate we need to chat , ill give you a pm soon bud , more pics please if you get the chance.

[Merrilyn]

Albino red gold diamond, and the original 4 normal RGDs. First RGDs to arrive in the country, and as far as I know, still the only albino RGD to be sent to Australia.

From the farm of Mr. Ung Seng Lip, the originator of the RGD strain.

[Merrilyn]

Second shipment of RGDs. Three females and two males. The males are carrying the pigeon blood gene, as evident by the dark caudal fin.

Females are pure RGD with clear caudal.

[Merrilyn]

And the price of a 3 inch albino RGD would be approx 1000 SGD which after import charges etc - would be in the thousands AUD.

G

Yep, it was :boohoo

But what magnificent fish 8-)

[brew3]

Albino red gold diamond, and the original 4 normal RGDs. First RGDs to arrive in the country, and as far as I know, still the only albino RGD to be sent to Australia.

From the farm of Mr. Ung Seng Lip, the originator of the RGD strain.


Hi Merrilyn,
I don't see any albino RGD's in that group.???
Attached picture of albino RGD that I have.
Mario

[brew3]

Pictures of some fancy red covers from the breeder.
Mario

:) :) :) :)

[Crocky]

Here a few pics,all taken over the top of the tank as I have lost interest in them.Meaning I haven't wipe the glass down for long time.
pic 1 some which have produce a pb pattern,but no peppering at all.
pic 2 90+% solid red/orange, black dorsal/anal fins.pectral and tails 60% are clean.
pic 3 some with white faces which have very little black.

[brew3]

Hi Crocky,
Just don't know what to say, it is throwing a lot of discus that I have never seen before and I dont think that the parents are RGD's, I suspect that they are golden melon crosses.
Mario


:cry: :cry: :cry:

[Crocky]

Hi Brew

Here some photo of these fish at 3 different stages.
At 12 days old.
10 cent size.
50 cent size with some turks and pb.
At this stage the where still clean fish no black fin or blue markings.
Merrilyn photo with the pair with wrigglers on the intake pipe are the parents of these babies.

Brad

[brew3]

50 cents size RGD's no marking at the tail at all.

[tao]

Is Wayne Chinese name Wu Shi Sheng? Nice guy but I don't like him. hehe
90%is very steady blood.
i think red cover first appeared in Singapore and san merah is from Taiwan. different routine solid brown. Wu is really a magician, first created blue diamond, now is making the top of red. its right if dont add more brown blood, red color will not be so strong and thick.

Tao,
I missed the part about where the San Merah's and Red Cover's came from and here are some of the information:

1. Red cover is actually San Merah and in china they call it Red Cover.

2. The original creator of the San Merah are the Pok brothers, they don't keep them anymore and all the stock were sold to Ah San who is in Singapore too and marketed that fish. The Super San Merah was improved by another breeder who moved to China from Singapore and his name is unknown.
i have some different info as in China we call red cover Red Cover:) call sah merah Cai Shen which is the god in charge of fortune. and another funny thing is we call red melon Cover Red. red cover and cover red two different fish. we believe san merah is from Taiwanese Chen huan kai. san merah have green face and dark brown bottom so the red close to pink. red cover has better body shape and light brown or yellow bottom color, so the red color is close to orange. correct me if wrong.
we have different version of solid brown, and also many different type of golden. so it's possible there are different RGD.
but Crockys are definitly pigeon blood. where are they from? lets add one bad credit on the seller.

[Crocky]

Hi Brew

Wish you didn't post that last photo.They look the same as the ones I have breed, right down to orange bars on there bodies and pink back ground.
Your close up shot, I could mistake as close up of the second last photo I posted.The only differents is the size of the fish, but they could be the same age as time and space was a problem for me.
I'm sure I have a photo just like that.I will find it up and show you,so you don't think I'm pulling your leg.

Brad

[G-1000]

Crocky,

I think an important point here is that you have clearly got a PB version of the RGD. So whilst you may have fish which appear to be RGD, you actually have a fish which holds the pigeon gene but doesnt express it.

These fish will give you massively different fry in the F2 generation. i.e breed the siblings which appear clean together and we will see a huge variation in fry - i would bet on it.

G

[Merrilyn]

G the fish Crocky bred, were from the 5 that I purchased as RGD. As I have stated previously, I believe the females to be RGD without any pigeon blood. There was no peppering at all on the females, even when spawning. There was, however visible peppering on the males during spawning, and the males, I believe carry the pigeon blood gene.

The pair Crocky bred, were owned by me at the time. They were from the second shipment, so we are talking about the same group of 5 fish.

Mario, I always wondered about the albino RGD, never having seen another to compare it with. It's very different from your fish, isn't it !

It was definately an albino, with a red iris, and it was supposed to have come from the farm of the creator. As it grew larger, the body colour did intensify, but never to the colour of your fish. Guess we will never know....

[G-1000]

LR,

No dispute there that you have female RGD - but Crocky has bred the male to the female RGD right? In doing so, a PB based RGD has been crossed with a clean RGD...

This will mean that all the offspring will have the pigeon gene, its just that not all of them will have a physical manifestation of the gene e.g not all of them will have blackness through the fins, or peppering on the face etc.

So whilst these babies Brad has bred look fine atm and most likely will appear to be full RGD when older, as soon as they are bred, there will be a different expression of the PB gene in all the young. Know what I am getting at?

However, in theory when two of those clean offspring that crocky has are then crossed to one another - 25% of the offspring will be totally clean and devoid of the pigeon gene however these fish may or may not resemble the RGD (i.e they could be san merah, goldens, rose reds, browns etc).

So there is a chance of getting clean RGD's out of them, but not until F2 generation. In the F1 which is shown in this thread, not one of them could be considered a clean RGD since they all have the pigeon gene. The only legit RGD's shown here are the full grown females that you have LR.

G

[Merrilyn]

Agreed G. That's why I gave all my RGD away.

It was a huge disappointment.

[G-1000]

Yes I can relate to that LR.

The fish I assume you have coming from Xtreme are the real deal though...

Im sure youll be sweet with them. Personally, I am giving up on RGD's after my experience. I would rather find top quality red rose or san merahs.

Nonetheless, we have all learnt a lesson in trust - albeit an expensive one.

G

[tao]

even carry PB gene, F1 should be good quality red melon, and more or less percentage look like RGD. it's wierd F1 turn to patterned pigeon blood and so much pepper even black tail bar.

[Crocky]

Hi G

We all know the male has pb in it.
I just posted a few pics of these fish to show forum members.
The more pics posted of the offspring from the true rgd the more I think they have pb in them.
This is because after breeding 7 lots from this pair with the pb gene,there a dead ringers to the ones brew posted.
I couldn't beleive my eye after 3month some started getting blue marking say 3 to 5 babies out of spawn.Maybe these will too and they get culled.

[Crocky]

One more thing if you cross 2 types of discus you should see a differents in some of the fry.I haven't breed many red fish can some one tell if m/red and r/melons or any pb based fish babies have orange stress bars.

Brad

[brew3]

Yes I can relate to that LR.

The fish I assume you have coming from Xtreme are the real deal though...

Im sure youll be sweet with them. Personally, I am giving up on RGD's after my experience. I would rather find top quality red rose or san merahs.

Nonetheless, we have all learnt a lesson in trust - albeit an expensive one.

G

G
I did learn my lesson years ago and buying fish from the discus broker you are proned to run into trouble. I do buy my fish directly from the breeder or from a trusted friend overseas that could go to the creator's farm and pick them.
Mario

:) :) :) :)

[brew3]

Mario, I always wondered about the albino RGD, never having seen another to compare it with. It's very different from your fish, isn't it !

It was definately an albino, with a red iris, and it was supposed to have come from the farm of the creator. As it grew larger, the body colour did intensify, but never to the colour of your fish. Guess we will never know....

Hi Merrilyn,
The albino RGD from the creator Ung Seng Lip is the same all across, it is the trust of the middleman that chooses the real fish for you and mine were chosen by Forrest.
Please check your PM.
Mario

[G-1000]

Brew,

I wanted to ask you about a discus called "Ica Red F1". It looks sort of like a rose red discus, but its also got the heckel bars on it too. Are you aware of anywhere these are available in asia?

I think Wayne's discus centre used to sell them - im not sure.

G

[G-1000]

http://www.rockymountaindiscus.com/ica_red_discus.htm

Its the same as that pic except with the heckel bars. IMO - easily the best red discus I have seen.

G

[brew3]

Brew,

I wanted to ask you about a discus called "Ica Red F1". It looks sort of like a rose red discus, but its also got the heckel bars on it too. Are you aware of anywhere these are available in asia?

I think Wayne's discus centre used to sell them - im not sure.

G

Hi G,
I'll give Wayne a call tonight and check it out.
Mario

:)

[Merrilyn]

The fish I assume you have coming from Xtreme are the real deal though...

G

Yes G, the fish at Xtreme are the real deal. They were hand picked by a discus judge, at the breeder's farm in Malaysia. No 'middle men' involved.

At last we have some genuine RGDs coming in to the country, and I'll be indulging my passion for RGD fish again :wink:

For me, no other red fish comes close to the beauty of the RGD.

[samir]

http://www.rockymountaindiscus.com/ica_red_discus.htm
Its the same as that pic except with the heckel bars. IMO - easily the best red discus I have seen.
G

this one's from his site, says they are hard to grow and breed.

[G-1000]

Samir,

Check out the picture at the back of one of the books you got from me. I think its in malaysian discus or maybe naked truth. They have a mad picture of one from Wayne's hatchery.

G

[samir]

G some of the brown discus have a heckel bar, i saw two of them with a very faint bar, in a batch of browns a few months ago. I think the picture of the red is in Andrew's book. I'm sure it can be bred if one can get a hold of some browns with the bar.

[G-1000]

Hey Xtreme if you are reading.

I think the fish Samir has just posted above would look great on the next shipment

wink wink

G

[scott bowler]

how to get the point across with out getting the poo your self , your a funny man G lol lol

[Xtreme]

Hi All,
Why would you want us to get some of those fish for you?
Especially if they say they are hard to keep and slow to grow?
Anyway we will endeavour to do our best for you all :wink:

Cheers Wayne

[G-1000]

I will accept almost any fish from Wayne Ng with open arms !!

Personally, I dont think a heckel hybrid would be hard to keep. .

G

[samir]

I don't think its from the traditional heckel, its probably from the heckel brown, maybe Mario can shed some light on it.

[Xtreme]

Ok ,
We have just spoken to Wayne Ng and he said this to us :
He no longer breeds the Ica Red,he hasnt bred that strain for about 3yrs
So in saying that if anyone wants them they will have to source them from the states as thats were they are .
We source our fish from Malaysia not the USA :cry:

Anyways lets get back to topic :wink:

Cheers Wayne

[G-1000]

haha

Ok Wayne!

Yes the RGD's are very good. hehe

Its a shame about Wayne not making the Ica's anymore but anyway.

Hey Wayne - is there any chance of being given a list of like say, what you guys are able to import and then getting pictures of the fish so that we can pay upfront on the ones we want to get hold of? Obviously with the hope of a small discount since the order would be pre-paid ??

G

[Xtreme]

Hi all,
Sorry about that G but we were getting off topic :lol:

G you said:


Hey Wayne - is there any chance of being given a list of like say, what you guys are able to import and then getting pictures of the fish so that we can pay upfront on the ones we want to get hold of? Obviously with the hope of a small discount since the order would be pre-paid ??

Sorry but atm we cannot provide you or others with a list to choose from as its just too hard as they come from different suppliers etc so the next best thing would be to put a EOI for what varients everyone would like?
Do you think that would work?
Also we can post pics of the fish if you like
With the upfront bit i think a 50% upfront would be enough dont you?

G maybe send me a pm if you would like to talk further about this matter


Cheers Wayne

[G-1000]

Hi Wayne,

That would work really well if you did an EOI for what everybody wants.

We get exactly the fish we are after and you guys dont end up with any excess stock of discus. Its a win-win I think.

So yeah if you had a section in the classifieds for EOI in discus then that would work. You would need to be careful though because if you didnt have firm buyers then you might get left with stock that isnt mainstream.

But yes, if everyone gave u guys a "wishlist" or something like that then it would be sweet.

In the case of money, paying 50% up front sounds cool. But the pictures is the main thing - the more pictures we can see for the strains we are after the better.

G

G

[brew3]

Ok ,
We have just spoken to Wayne Ng and he said this to us :
He no longer breeds the Inca Red,he hasnt bred that strain for about 3yrs
So in saying that if anyone wants them they will have to source them from the states as thats were they are .
We source our fish from Malaysia not the USA :cry:

Anyways lets get back to topic :wink:

Cheers Wayne

Hey Wayne,
I'm sorry to say that you have not spoken to Wayne but somebody else, he did say that he doesn't breed that strain and there is somebody else that breeds them in Germany and he is in middle 60's and in poor health.
Mario

[brew3]

I don't think its from the traditional heckel, its probably from the heckel brown, maybe Mario can shed some light on it.

Samir,
Crosses were made years ago by Schmidt Focke and those fish were exchanged between Lo Wing Yat and another german breeder. Wayne bought them originally from Lo Wing Yat.
The German breeder may have some but he is not breeding them due to poor health.
Mario

:) :)

[brew3]

I will accept almost any fish from Wayne Ng with open arms !!

Personally, I dont think a heckel hybrid would be hard to keep. .

G

G,
I'll be posting some pictures of the Heckel hybrids that Wayne is breeding as soon as I get them from his hatchery.
Mario

:) :)

[brew3]

I will accept almost any fish from Wayne Ng with open arms !!

Personally, I dont think a heckel hybrid would be hard to keep. .

G

G,
Attached picture taken Nov/2005 and that's the only picture that I have taken regarding the hybrid Heckel's.
Mario

:) :)

[G-1000]

Brew,

Are they the only hybrid heckels he has ?

G

[brew3]

Brew,

Are they the only hybrid heckels he has ?

G

G,
Those are the one's that I have seen last year, I haven't been to China this year and he was suppose to send me some pictures of the hybrid heckel that he is breeding.
I will post when I hear some news.
Mario

:) :)

[DiscusEden]

Xtreme,

I would love to be involved in an EOI for the next shipment - was planning to phone you 9/1/07 - or could do by e-mail if you prefer.

Lovely reds by the way (pretending this was on topic). What's the difference between a red cover and a San Merah again?

DiscusEden

[G-1000]

Hey Mario

I think he wants to see some pictures of Wayne's new heckel hybrids hehehe

G

[samir]

could I get a price for 10cm RGD in grade A.

[Merrilyn]

*Admin Edit*

Some of the post, not pertaining to this topic, have been given a separate thread of their own in the Amazon Lounge.

[momo]

what would this guy be then?

[tao]

nice fish momo. super clean and sharp body shape. can you please tell me where is it from? BTW how is your leopard?

[tao]

Brew,

Are they the only hybrid heckels he has ?

G
2 G-1000,
I found some interesting discus pic on internet.

[momo]

nice fish momo. super clean and sharp body shape. can you please tell me where is it from? BTW how is your leopard?

fish was from Fish Rock, to be honest its the best red fish ive seen in australia, its has an EXTREMELY high body that you cant really make out in the pic, and does not have a single spot of peppering. very round good shape and well balanced fish.

unfortneately it was the only one of that style.

HTH

[tao]

good choice.
so is it red melon or?
actually call pigeon blood is because the color of the eyes look like pigeon blood stone, not because of peper, peper is from crossing. now many strains red melon already developed to be few or no peper.

[samir]

must be one of the red melons from fish rock. :banghead :banghead wish i had bought one. great looking fish.

[cwtan]

Wow..hey guys, thanks for having this constructive and informative thread :D

Just wanna share some links with you guys... :wink:


More RGD and Albino RGD can be found here: http://www.myfishforum.com/thread5119.html

Albino Melon / Red Cover photos can be found here:
http://www.discus.com.my/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=184