substrate----your opinions

[bushie]

in your opinion what is "THE BEST" substrate for a planted tank.
Please give reasons for your choice and any first hand experience stories.

this may help a few of us decide before we set up our next display.

[Roy]

What is the best colour car ?

Sorry but its a matter of choice at the end of the day, depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve and grow etc.
Also what else you use will have an effect.

Personally ive used gravel (big chunky and doesnt allow good root growth) with fertilers balls, got some great growth out of amazon swords but that was about it.

Currently using Flourite in my display tank with a covering of pool filter sand, no root ferts just liquids twice a week. Getting great growth out of the stem plants and about half of my crypts.

Planning on setting up some tanks with ADA soil, got the soil but waiting till next year to buy the tanks. But feedback on them has been good and the prices are a little more expensive at the moment, but may be worth it.

Thats based on my personal experience, also planning on trying Eco-Complete at some stage down the track.

Roy

[bushie]

yeah roy,
I know it`s a open question with so many different views.
but I was hoping to get peoples first hand experiences to get an idea of what works for them. then I can take the best of theyre experience and try to incorporate it into my next display tank.

looking at setting up an 8ft x 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 planted discus/ community.
full co2, halide and t5 combos, moonlights, etc etc.
am willing to go with full ADA substrate if this is going to be the best.
used ADA on my nano which worked really well, but looking at all options at the moment and hoping to get some ideas.

cheers
bushie

[Roy]

Ahh well if money is no object :D

ADA, Dupla, Eco-Complete or Flourite would be my ideas.
Personally for something that size, i would prob go ADA, spending a lot for the rest of the equipment anyway.

Roy

[shewey]

ADA is definately the best. Especially if you are going for a big carpet foreground with something like glosso. I have heard some good things about Eco-complete as well and am in the process of setting up a tank with it right now.

Cheers,
Mark.

[ml29]

I'll be using eco complete on my next planted tank. Saved a small fortune buying it on sale from ASA. Tank will be up and running when my new house is completed.

[bushie]

I was thinking ADA or eco complete or even a layered substrate.
anyone have first hand experience using the above?
if so which in your opinion is better?

and it`s not that money is no object.
I just want to do it once and do it right.
I`ll be working overtime for a year paying for this one :lol:

[shewey]

What sort of plants are you going with? If you are just going to use stem plants then you could probably save yourself a few hundred bucks by just using normal gravel with some laterite. Then just fertalise the water column with your micros and macros.

If you go the layered approach with something like ADA with normal gravel, you mightr want to put a mesh or something over the layer to stop them from mixing.

Your project sounds like a bewdy, looking forward to hearing all about it as it evolves. :-)

Cheers,
Mark.

[duck]

I have Eco-Complete and using now,In my sig are my tanks.
I have no problem with it I have a low light and high light tanks using it.


One thing I would never do is to mix Purpose made substrate with anything else,A waste of money, you should just stick with latrite or potting mix ect if you want to mix.



If you go the layered approach with something like ADA with normal gravel, you mightr want to put a mesh or something over the layer to stop them from mixing.

Then what happen's if A gaint sword wraps it's roots around the mesh.

[Proteus]

I will give both personal and commercial opinion (cause I can)

I used to be a fan of ADA however I will strongly recommend against using it now for several reasons. Firstly, it is priced 100-250% more than it should be priced at. Secondly, numerous customer complaints about how it crushes too easily when compacted. Thirdly, several people, including users here have had to strip back tanks that had ADA in place as it continued to cloud the water for weeks and weeks afterwards. Lastly, the powder and normal soils filter through to the bottom layer when using power sand, which leaves big unsightly chunks visible.

Seachem Flourite, I like, but it can be a little rough on stem plants.

Dupla Ground... have no issues with it, well priced, looks good, works well.

Eco-Complete, I would put this at the top of the pile, it looks great, the results speak for them selves, and I have not had any complaints yet from other people or customers regarding cloudy tanks, breaking down etc etc...

Red Sea Flora base, another solid performer, I would rate this as equal second with Flourite behind Eco-Complete

[shewey]

Then what happen's if A gaint sword wraps it's roots around the mesh.

Yeah that is not good. Personally I would never use the mesh approach, but I have heard of other people using it. I agree about not mixing a good substrate with normal gravel...it seems like a waste.

Hey Duck have you had any issues with eco-complete increasing your kh? I am about to put 5 bags of it into my tank and I have heard people saying it increases your kh. My kh is hard enough already.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Proteus]

re: my last post.

I should point out that ADA Amazonia in small tanks is great, especially for its buffering capacity. However in big tanks... have fun

[Nathan]

ive got ADA on my 3ft tank, works great an looks even better, the plants are going crazy, i havnt had any issues with the tank been cloudy (was cloudy for the first day on initial setup) hav no problems with the powersand coming up through the soil.

if i was to do another planted tank an money wasnt a problem then id be going ADA again with not a doubt in my mind.

[Nathan]

heres the link on my tank using ADA soil if your interested

[Nathan]

i cant believe i forgot to add the link sorrryyy

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9778

[shewey]

How about some latest pics Nathan. :-)

Nice post Proteus. Lots of good points, especially about the tank size.

[Proteus]

There have been a few threads on APC and other U.S. planted tank forums recently stating that quite a few bags of ADA ar coming through as being contaminated (not fired at hot enough temperatue in the kiln during manufacturing)

Pic attached, after a 100% water change (no fish involved with the tank) (from APC)

[duck]

Then what happen's if A gaint sword wraps it's roots around the mesh.

Yeah that is not good. Personally I would never use the mesh approach, but I have heard of other people using it. I agree about not mixing a good substrate with normal gravel...it seems like a waste.

Hey Duck have you had any issues with eco-complete increasing your kh? I am about to put 5 bags of it into my tank and I have heard people saying it increases your kh. My kh is hard enough already.

Cheers,
Mark.
It can raise your KH but this is only tempoariy(Need to learn how to spell)a few WC will settle it down,Also if it did raise the KH it will be only a couple of point's nothing to worry about,And i don't think you have any plants that are that delicate,And if you do, you have to pass some to me :).
I very rarely test my water,The last time my KH was from memory 3-4.5.

[Davo]

ADA is rated highly in the US. Eco-Complete was rated as No. 1 before ADA came along but now all the top planted tank guru's use and rave about it.

When I need to redo my 4x2x2 I will definitely be using it.

Dave.

[Proteus]

but now all the top planted tank guru's use and rave about it.

I would be very very wary of making such a comment. Many well known aquatic gardeners do use it, but there are just as many who tried it and didnt like it, or wont use it for reasons only they know about.

Last year at the U.S. AGA awards, of the 20 top entries only 3 tanks used ADA, and none of those were in the top 5.

Best bet is to read some of the aquatic plant forums that dont have sponsors that specifically sell these products and get a real idea of what people think.

[Seaview]

obviously we stock and do recommend the ADA soil range and yes there is always going to be pros and cons about a product. I have personally and professional used all three soils from ADA and i must say that out of all of them the amazonia is the only one that clouds the waterfor a few days posably a week. the other two cloud for a day maybe two and clear up. this is due mainly to the fact that it does have a strong degree of tanens in the soil, So we are told by Japan. I have noticed that everyone always talks about how it clouds the water takes ages to clear up yet everytime it is only on the amazonia that pple have used the products. Dont get us wrong the amazonia is the nices looking out of the lot but if you are designing a ADA style you can choose to use the other two types and place gravel in the forground.

We also as of yet have had no problem with the soil and powder falling through and exposing the powersand, maybe the pple who have have not used enough soil or powder to give a good soil ground and only sprinkled it over the top which then no matter what you do will expose the powersand

as for the pricing compared to seachem and caribsea the prices are a little dearer, however compared to seachem you do get more in the bag and also personaly the soil is a much nicer product to work with. We are working on the pricing of some of the ADA range and hopefully some good will come from it.

overall we have used all the brands through display tanks and personaly and ADA soil is excellent to work with and brings great result. the seachem range also i would have to say is a top line soil to use. we have had much success with both and recommend either.

[ellwa]

When i re-built my aquarium at the begining of the year, I did as much research as I could as to all the products that I was going to use, and, being unable to get hold of eco-complete at a good price, I opted for a bag of Red and a bag of brown Flourite.

Was happy with the look, but had trouble growing my more than swords in it. my Anubias etc. that was planted in it was getting rotten stems, and the lotus was having a bit of trouble. Add to that that I could get my Red lotus going at all.

About 6 months ago I added about 10kg of Pool Filter sand over the top, and everything in the tank has gone crazy.

It is at the point now hough that alot of the flourite is coming to the top of the sand, so I'm going to add another couple of kilos of sand in the new year.

On my next tank I think I'll be going with eco-complete, and pool filter sand over the top, but doing it before I add water, to get a good coverage.

I think its up to personal choice, but while I've looked at the ADA substrates, I agree that they're far over priced, and by the time you put in all the addatives that they want to sell you, you're looking at a few hundred dollars just for substrate, in a 3ft tank.

*shrug*

each to their own, I suppose.

elliot.

[Proteus]

as for the pricing compared to seachem and caribsea the prices are a little dearer, however compared to seachem you do get more in the bag and also personaly the soil is a much nicer product to work with.

...a little dearer, I don't think almost double the price clasifies as a little dearer, sorry.

Dupla Ground 20kg = $67.95 ($3.40 per kg)
CaribSea Eco-Complete 9.2kg = $34.95 ($3.80 per kg)
Seachem Flourite 7kg = $34.95 ($4.99 per kg)
Red Sea Florabase 5.4kg = $35.95 ($6.66 per kg) - Same properties as ADA Malaya and also made in Japan :wink:
ADA AquaSoil (all varieties) 9kg = $62.95 ($6.99 per kg)

(these are all current online prices, excluding freight costs)


We are working on the pricing of some of the ADA range and hopefully some good will come from it.

You know my position on this, and I am sure if the hobbyists out there knew what sort of a ride not only they, but also other retailers were being taken on I am sure some heads would roll. ADA pricing in Australia should be on par with Eco-Complete & Seachem, at least below $5 per kg retail, yet the way things are now that will never happen. I am sure if enough people caused waves with ADA in Japan it wont be long before the product is parallel imported and priced much more reasonably.

No offence is intended to Seaview as I will gladly say they are a reputable business, and know they need to promote what they sell, however this is an issue I dug my heels in over several months ago, and will follow this through until somehing is done about it.

[Xtreme]

A few months ago when we did stock ADA products (prior to it being withdrawn as we wanted to sell it for less than RRP) we set up a few tanks for clients.

Needless to say, the ADA substrate is going to be removed as even daily or weekly water changes will not remove the cloudy effect that is a result of the substrate.

ADA Africana was used, approx 22L in a 4 ft tank.

Bec

[shewey]

Eco-Complete for $34.95 a bag is an absolute bargain and its a great substrate. If Aquasoil came down closer to those prices I am sure it would do a lot better here in Australia.

Cheers,
Mark

[Davo]

Regarding my earlier post I have looked at 4 US forums and they all have positive reviews of ADA substrates. There are numerous posts (positive) by numerous people who obviously don't have any affiliation with ADA etc. They also have positive reviews of Eco-Complete and Seachem Flourite also. I use Seachem Flourite and like it.

Obviously there are people who do not like it but the positive reviews outweigh the negative reviews by a large majority.

Dave.

[Proteus]

Dave, the issue here is no so much the product, but the price.

Based on value for money, it is simply not an option for many people.

At the end of the day, for 95% of the consumers, it comes down to price, simple as that. Why else do some people buy expensive componentry overseas, like UVC's, etc etc

All you have to do is look at the prices of all these items in no less than 5 other western countries and guess what, ADA is the same price as Eco, Dupla & Seachem, if not cheaper.

From an import perspective, the price paid here in YEN to ADA is actually US$0.52 cheaper than in the U.S. for the importer, plus freight is a lot less to here as it only has to travel half the distance. Yet the wholesale price here is the same as the retail price in the U.S.

Need I say more

[Davo]

Pro,

Yeah I understand that the prices are too high. Why is it so high??? and can anything be done about it?

When I bought my Flourite 2 years ago I paid $70 for a 7 or 9kg bag (can't remember) and I did not buy the recommended amount as I mixed it with a gravel/sand mix (it worked well).

When I do my next tank (6x2x2) hopefully the price will have come down or I may have to look at Eco-Complete which also does not require the other ADA products.

Dave.

[Proteus]

Why is it so high???

Greed, the thought of having a monopoly on a product (hint, parallel importing usually fixes that)


and can anything be done about it?

Send messages to ADA Japan stating the issues that we are confronted with.

i.e. Our RRP is twice that of other countries, Secondly, the fact that if a retailer makes the decision to sell the product at a lower price than the RRP they should not be expected to have to deal with abuse, threats and having supply withdrawn from the supplier. Once again, I could continue with a lot more, however it is all negative and I would rather focus on the positives.

If enough noise is made, changes will occur, or, the supplier goes broke, simple as that.

[diveboy]

I've gone Eco-complete only because of the price on ASA. I couldn't justify it otherwise. I've still found myself questioning my judgement (not on eco complete, but spending that MUCH money on substrate).

[Proteus]

I've gone Eco-complete only because of the price on ASA. I couldn't justify it otherwise. I've still found myself questioning my judgement (not on eco complete, but spending that MUCH money on substrate).

I am sure you will be happy with the results, that is when you know it was money well spent.

Good things take time, and usually cost money :wink:

[duck]

I've gone Eco-complete only because of the price on ASA. I couldn't justify it otherwise. I've still found myself questioning my judgement (not on eco complete, but spending that MUCH money on substrate).
Look at it like this, You will never have to buy it again,A once off cost.
Black never goes out of fashion:)

[Proteus]

What are you trying to say Duck,

Once you go Black, you never go back :shock:

:lol:

[bushie]

looks like I opened a can of worms here.
oh well, at least after I buy my substrate I`ll have something to feed my fish :lol:
which is lucky , cause by the time I buy it I won`t be able to afford to feed them.

[duck]

What are you trying to say Duck,

Once you go Black, you never go back :shock:

:lol:

Yep lol

[Seaview]

...a little dearer, I don't think almost double the price clasifies as a little dearer, sorry.

Dupla Ground 20kg = $67.95 ($3.40 per kg)
CaribSea Eco-Complete 9.2kg = $34.95 ($3.80 per kg)
Seachem Flourite 7kg = $34.95 ($4.99 per kg)
Red Sea Florabase 5.4kg = $35.95 ($6.66 per kg) - Same properties as ADA Malaya and also made in Japan :wink:
ADA AquaSoil (all varieties) 9kg = $62.95 ($6.99 per kg)

(these are all current online prices, excluding freight costs)

Pro i know your feelings towards certain pple and ADA and i just saw the thread and gave my opion on what soils we use and what we have found to be affective. i still stand on the comparision on the prices, we still believe they are comparable to other brands giving the higher quality, and if you take out ASA's xmas special price and refer not only to ASA online prices but also to other online and LFS the price is comparable

CaribSea Eco-Complete 9.2kg = $49.95 ($5.42 per kg)
Seachem Flourite 7kg = $45.95 ($6.56 per kg)
Red Sea Florabase 5.4kg = $45.95 ($8.50 per kg) - Same properties as ADA Malaya and also made in Japan :wink:
ADA AquaSoil (all varieties) 9kg = $62.95 ($6.99 per kg)


I believe it was you that not so long ago also said.......


Actually, ADA stuff is far from expensive.

To give you an idea.

ADA AquaSoil 9L = $62.95 (@ $6.99 per litre)
Red Sea Flora Base/Dupla 5.4L = $53.95 (@ $9.99 per litre)
Seachem Flourite 7L = $69.95 (@ $9.99 per litre)
Caribsea EcoComplete 9.2L = $77.99 (@ $8.47 per litre)
JBL AquaBasis Plus 2.5L = $12.95 (@ $5.20 per litre)

These are based on non discounted prices, and given the high quality of the ADA Aqua Soil I think that shows just how competitive the prices are.

In regards to the basic Fertilizers I could do the same comparison, however most of the ADA liquids are very highly concentrated, requiring 1ml per 20-25L whereas something ike Sera Florena is dosed at 5ml per 20ml.

Fish... Have not decded on that yet, but depending on what temperature the plants that are chosen can tolerate, I may put Discus in there.


Bec

just out of interested i noticed that in the first pic the soil is nicely layed out and looking clear but in the 2nd it is really pushed up at the left front....??? do you have any cats or loaches that are digging or stirring up the soil??? we did have a problem with the soil when we had loaches in a tank. they really stired up the soil and made it cloudy, we removed them and now the tanks a cystral clear again.

[Proteus]

I believe it was you that not so long ago also said.......

It should also be noted that the wholesale cost price on most of the other items have come down dramtically over the past 2 months. Those prices are not Xmas prices, they are here to stay in most cases.

In regards to the tank Xtreme posted images of, there are no loaches and the build up on the right side is probably from the constant need for water changes.. Regardless of loaches or not, a good substrate should not have that issue.

For the record, there are 2-3 other online stores with similar or identical pricing on the other items, once again due to the wholesale price changes, and competitive pressures.

The quoted comparison was on a tank which I was going to set up. After further cost analysis and the fact so so many other associated products were needed to get the most out of the soil I ditched that plan. A tank is meant to be enjoyed, not a reason to go broke.

[Proteus]

A few months ago when we did stock ADA products (prior to it being withdrawn as we wanted to sell it for less than RRP) we set up a few tanks for clients.

Needless to say, the ADA substrate is going to be removed as even daily or weekly water changes will not remove the cloudy effect that is a result of the substrate.

ADA Africana was used, approx 22L in a 4 ft tank.

Bec

It should be noted that this soil has been removed from the tank and accordingly dumped where it belongs.

Overall the ADA product has been removed from no less than 6 tanks due to issues relating to water quality.

Oh, wonder if AQIS will ever find the seedlings and dead plant matter that quite often gets included with the soild, now that will be interesting to see.

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/clients__tank_180.jpg

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/ada_africana.jpg

Gotta love this ADA Aamazonia pic...

http://www.discusforums.com/forum/files/ada_contaminated.jpg

[Merrilyn]

Just thought I'd give an update to this thread. As a lot of you know, I used ADA in a number of my tanks, including the ten footer.

Plant growth is amazing, and I have no complaints in that department, but what I am finding is that the ADA soil is breaking down to a mud like state, and every little bit of disturbance to the substrate sends up clouds of mud that coat all the leaves and driftwood in the tank. Not sure if this is supposed to happen, but it makes the tanks look very dirty.

I've solved the problem in several tanks, including the ten footer, by adding an inch (2.5cm) layer of Eco Complete over the top. Tanks are staying much cleaner now. In some of the smaller tanks, I've just removed the ADA soil altogether.

Anyone else had this problem? Or did I just get a bad batch that wasn't baked long enough or something.

I didn't expect it to break down and turn to mud within 6 months.

[Proteus]

There are quite a few articles from other users who have had the same problem and have either placed another substrate over the top, or discarded it altogether.

In regards to the clouding, it is quite amusing to hear a certain self proclaimed know it all (pffffft) state publically that ADA will not cloud your tank.


obviously we stock and do recommend the ADA soil range and yes there is always going to be pros and cons about a product. I have personally and professionaly used all three soils from ADA and i must say that out of all of them the amazonia is the only one that clouds the water for a few days posably a week. the other two cloud for a day maybe two and clear up. this is due mainly to the fact that it does have a strong degree of tanens in the soil, So we are told by Japan. I have noticed that everyone always talks about how it clouds the water takes ages to clear up yet everytime it is only on the amazonia that pple have used the products. Dont get us wrong the amazonia is the nices looking out of the lot but if you are designing a ADA style you can choose to use the other two types and place gravel in the forground.

We also as of yet have had no problem with the soil and powder falling through and exposing the powersand, maybe the pple who have have not used enough soil or powder to give a good soil ground and only sprinkled it over the top which then no matter what you do will expose the powersand

Considering a unreliable source is going around telling people that ADA always gives crystal clear water (oh, and has photos and video to prove it as well) I would say this is a bit of pie in the face.

To quote:


ADA Aqua-Soil, if at all, will only cloud the water for a couple of hours at worste. Unless you have used something else in conjuction with the ADA Aqua-Soil, there is no reason for this to occur. We have photographed and filmed a tank set-up using ADA Amazonia Aqua-Soil to prove that these claims are COMPLETELY FALSE. XXX and others were present during this test.

[Merrilyn]

We also as of yet have had no problem with the soil and powder falling through and exposing the powersand, maybe the pple who have have not used enough soil or powder to give a good soil ground and only sprinkled it over the top which then no matter what you do will expose the powersand

I did have powersand in the bottom of the ten footer, with a three inch layer of amazon soil and amazon powder over the top of it (work that out in dollars spent :!: ) yet I still couldn't stop the power sand creeping up through the soil layers. No substrate digging fish in that tank, just discus, so I couldn't work it out. Every morning there would be more speckels of white power sand on the surface spoiling the look of the black substrate.

In the end I removed the lot of it. What a job that was. Sifting all the amazon soil and picking out the powersand by hand. :roll: It still sits in buckets in my back yard. Eighteen kilograms of it, free to anyone who wants it.

[Proteus]

It still sits in buckets in my back yard. Eighteen kilograms of it, free to anyone who wants it.

Given comments about the Powersand Large in the U.S. I reckon you might have to pay someone to take it... hehehe

[Merrilyn]

Might be worth noting too, that the power sand is not a sand at all, but more a lightweight gravel, and it's large too, like scorria and about the same weight.

Maybe if it was crushed more, it wouldn't work it's way to the surface all the time.

[Robdog]

I've got it running in only 2 small tanks at the moment. Both tanks have used soil from the same bag and I still have some left over. One tank has an apisto pair hopefully getting jiggy and the other has been planted with val, hairgrass and blyxa.
The tank with fish has heaps of algae(I guess from excess nutrients and not many plants) but clear water.
The planted tank is cloudy but I've never had hairgrass grow so well. It's like a little hairgrass jungle.

[shake]

Let me just say that 3 weeks ago I decided to redo my 3 ft tank and redo it it using Amazonia Aquasoil. I bought it from another supplier (you know the one lol) ASA had it special to get rid of it but sold out of the Amazonia. The other company decide to match the price (or close too) so I bought 3 x 9l.

I have read all the post here and on other forums of the problems with cloudy water. I would assume that this is a small majority considering how many bags must be sold around the world. I'm sure there are alot of compaints that we don't hear also.

Back to the tank. Sofar I have had no cloudiness. I'm actually quiet please with the growth also. I'm getting better growth than what I was getting from just laterite and gravel. I'm using the Seachem range of ferts. No other ADA product has been added to the aquasoil, but I did add a little laterite sprinkled to the bottom layer of aquasoil.

Is it expensive. Yes, and I hope something will be done about it.
Will I use it again. Yes, but I won't rush out in a hurry to get it.
Is there anything better than Aquasoil. I can't answer this question. I have only used gravel/laterite and Aquasoil. I am please with the resuls and I aslo like how it crumbles before it scratches the glass if caught in a glass magnet.
Should we boycott it. I really don't want to answer that question. With people getting sued over little things these days, I want to watch what i write.

Just my 2 cents

[Robdog]

Will I use it again. Yes, but I won't rush out in a hurry to get it.

Will I use it again? Yes I probably will, but only if the price resembles what it is worth.
Insert lame disclaimer here> Just my opinion! :roll:

[Proteus]

Considering a landed price for a 9L bag of ADA Aquasoil is a little over AU$13 you do the math. (that includes cost price in Yen, Stamp Duty, Freight, Insurance & GST).

The wholesale price in Australia is the same as the U.S. retail price (using current exchange rate). Yet the U.S. pays the same price in Yen for the base product, so what gives?

[Roy]

No paralell importing is the issue, no competition.
If sales slow, prices may drop....

On the other hand if mez is giving away some powersand i could take a bucket or two off her hands :D
Would surely make a good base under some eco-complete ?

Roy

[Davo]

I think some people need to step back and take a deep breath. ADA is simply a substrate. If people wish to pay a higher price for it then so be it. Supply and demand. Nobody is being forced to buy it. For every complaint about it's quality I have read numerous rave reviews about it. A very highly rated planted tank guru in the US has used just about every substrate and he highly recommends it.

I have never used it and until it's price drops I wont. Eco-Complete looks good to me but if the ADA products were a bit cheaper I would probably get it.

Just my two bobs worth,
Dave.

[ellwa]

So I just ordered 2 9kg bags of eco complete, because everyone has been raving about it.

but what I really want to know, is is it worth doing an inch or so thick layer of sand over the top, or just going with the EC on its own?

When I added sand to the setup that I'm going to re do, I didn't empty the tank completely, I just removed theplants and added sand, and its meant that I've never been able to get a solid sand layer, and now its nicely mixed through the Flourite.

thoughts, ideas, comments would be much appreciated.

[Cuong]

I have Amazonia in a small display tank. The first couple of days was cloudy but I kinda expected that. I think the key is not to touch the substrate during waterchanges so the water stays clear. I'd probably buy it again if I was setting up a small tank but not a large one.

[Proteus]

So I just ordered 2 9kg bags of eco complete, because everyone has been raving about it.

but what I really want to know, is is it worth doing an inch or so thick layer of sand over the top, or just going with the EC on its own?

When I added sand to the setup that I'm going to re do, I didn't empty the tank completely, I just removed theplants and added sand, and its meant that I've never been able to get a solid sand layer, and now its nicely mixed through the Flourite.

thoughts, ideas, comments would be much appreciated.

Personally I would use Eco on its own, if anything a layer of peat or mulm underneath it, thats it. Given that Eco is very dark, eventually it will mix with the sand and I feel it will look dirty - if that makes sense

[Bald_noggin]

I agree with Proteus, just go with the Eco-Complete.

I have just recevied my 6 bags of 9.2Kg. Unfortuantely the substrate heating cables have not turned up just yet but I just had to empty one bag into the tank to get an idea of what it will look like. All I have to say is, WOW! :shock: It's going to look awesome with a dark bed and a black background. The plants and fish are really going to stand out against the dark settings and for me, that's what it is all about.

[ellwa]

thanks pro, and baldy.

next question. Do i have to wash the EC before I us it?

I hope 18kg is enough :s

I put 14 of flourite, and it just wasn't quite enough, so hopefully that extra 4kg will get me over the line.

[Roy]

How big is the tank ?
I put 21kgs of Flourite into a standard 4ft and it was adequate for crypts and some stem plants.
If your doing a 3ft i would think 18kg should be fine.

Roy

[Grae]

Dont wash the ECO
and from my experiance with eco ( ive been using for 18months) more is better than less.

Graeme

[Bald_noggin]

Yeah, don't wash the EC. It's clean right out of the bag.

On the packets that I received, there were two lines that had been crossed out with a marker pen.

'Packed in Liquid Amazon Buffered "Black Water" solution for immediate organic water conditioning' and, 'No rinsing, pack in water conditioning solution for immediate results' :?

Out of three boxes, one of them had not been opened so it seems that it had come from the manufacturer this way.

The only reason I can think of is maybe because of Quarantine laws so the 'Black Water' solution is not added.

Any other thoughts from people?

[Grae]

Mine all came unopened.

I just tipped into the tank over a thin layer of peat.
Mind you I was using it when it was unpopular due to the contaminated batches.

Still going well in my planted tank.
just remember that plants need more than just good looking substrate.


Graeme

[ellwa]

I've got high light, CO2, a daily fert routine, and weekly 25% WCs.

I just don't like the look of the sand mixing with the other substrate.

I'll get to it either this week or next week.

we'll see how work is.

I'll be sure to take pics, too :)

[ILLUSN]

Hi all what type of peat do you use under your eco complete? sedge, spagnum or the efhi torf type stuff for filters?

[OscarManAlpha]

Hi all what type of peat do you use under your eco complete? sedge, spagnum or the efhi torf type stuff for filters?

IMHO peat does nothing but make a mess.........the sword roots lotus ect get tangled up in it and when you relocate them it makes a mess.....

I have only ever used the dupla methods and on my last set up I used peat and noticed no difference in any of the plants growth.

If and when I get round to using the eco complete I will use it as a stand alone at the start.

If I do use it and wan't to add an extra boost to swords lotus ect....I would just add the dupla laterite balls or some other long term nutrient ball.

HTH's.

Cheers,

Mark